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Chapter 10: Changes
What Happens
Perrin emerges from the Wise Ones’ tent, exhausted and dissatisfied with their vague-at-best promises not to take any independent action against Masema; they had yielded no ground on the Aes Sedai at all. Perrin sees Masuri beating a rug as her Warder Rovair watches glumly; Masuri glares at Perrin malevolently, and Perrin sighs. He turns to go, and stops when he sees Gaul approach with a man Perrin hadn’t seen in a very long time. Elyas Machera says it’s good to see Perrin again, and asks if he ever gave away that axe. Perrin answers that he still hates it, and asks what Elyas is doing with Gaul. Gaul comments that he did not know Elyas was behind him until he coughed, which silences the nearby Maidens; Perrin expects them to make fun of Gaul, but instead they rattle their spears in approval.
Elyas grunted ambiguously and tugged his hat down, yet he smelled pleased. The Aiel did not approve of much this side of the Dragonwall. “I like to keep moving,” he told Perrin, “and I just happened to be in Ghealdan when some mutual friends told me you were traveling with this parade.” He did not name the mutual friends; it was unwise to speak openly about talking to wolves. “Told me a lot of things. Told me they smell a change coming. They don’t know what. Maybe you do. I hear you’ve been running with the Dragon Reborn.”
It hadn’t occurred to Perrin to ask the wolves about more than where people were so as to avoid them, but he answers the whole world is changing, even aside from Rand. Gaul looks at them both, no doubt comparing their eyes, but only says he will leave old friends to catch up, and exchanges jokes with the Maidens about Bain and Chiad before heading off. Elyas suggests moving away from “the sister trying to murder that rug,” as Aes Sedai make him uneasy, and hopes there aren’t going to be more with Perrin than the three he already has; Perrin hopes not, and asks if Elyas is worried about meeting a sister who knows him.
“One who knows my name will be bad enough. Warders don’t run off often, boy. Most Aes Sedai will free a man who really wants to go—most will—and anyway, she can track you down however far you run if she decides to hunt. But any sister who finds a renegade will spend her idle moments making him wish he’d never been born.” […] “Worst thing would be to run into Rina. I’d rather be caught in a forest fire with both legs broken.”
Perrin says he thought the bond would let Elyas know where Rina is, and Elyas answers that some Aes Sedai can “fuzz” the bond, and laughs at Perrin’s surprise, pointing out that there are some times you wouldn’t want someone else in your head, after all. He comments that he was surprised to find out Perrin had married a Saldaean, and Perrin asks why. Elyas answers, because Perrin is “a quiet sort”, and he’s no doubt figured out by now that Saldaeans are anything but quiet: “Set the sun on fire one minute, and the next, it’s all blown away and forgotten.” He reminisces fondly about the tempestuous year he lived with a Saldaean woman, and Perrin insists weakly that Faile isn’t like that.
Elyas glanced at him sideways. “If I ever smelled a man trying to dodge hail… You’ve been giving her soft words all the time, haven’t you? Mild as milk-water and never lay your ears back? Never raise your voice to her?”
“Of course not!” Perrin protested. “I love her! Why would I shout at her?”
Elyas begins muttering to himself over the folly of sticking your nose in other people’s marriages, but Perrin insists that he explain himself, and Elyas tells him he knows Saldaeans, and practically none are “mild-mannered.”.He bets Faile is “a leopard,” and tells Perrin to quit growling, as he also bets she’d smile to be called that. Perrin realizes he’s right, but answers that Elyas can’t possibly be suggesting that Faile wants him to shout at her.
“Just hear me out. Most women, you raise your voice, and they go bulge-eyed or ice, and next thing you know, you’re arguing about you being angry, never mind what put the ember down your back in the first place. Swallow your tongue with a Saldaean, though, and to her, you’re saying she isn’t strong enough to stand up to you. Insult her like that, and you’re lucky she doesn’t feed you your own gizzard for breakfast. She’s no Far Madding wench, to expect a man to sit where she points and jump when she snaps her fingers. She’s a leopard, and she expects her husband to be a leopard, too. Light! I don’t know what I’m doing. Giving a man advice about his wife is a good way to get your innards spilled.”
Elyas changes the subject to say that he thought Perrin could use another friend at his back, which is why he came. Perrin answers distractedly that he could always use a friend, wondering if what he’d said about Faile could possibly be true. They are interrupted by four riders entering camp: Berelain, Annoura, Gallenne, and a woman in a hooded cloak, who all go straight to Perrin’s tent and hurry inside. The camp is astir in speculation, and Perrin supposes Berelain has brought a messenger from Alliandre. He excuses himself to Elyas.
“Later, we’ll talk about what lies south. And you can meet Faile,” he added before turning away.
“The Pit of Doom lies south,” the other man called after him, “or as close to it as I expected to see below the Blight.” Perrin imagined he heard that faint thunder in the west again. Now, that would be a pleasant change.
In the tent, Lini, Breane and Maighdin are serving everyone refreshments while Faile, Berelain, and Annoura hover over the strange woman, who does not blink at Perrin’s eyes. Berelain immediately introduces Perrin to her as “Lord Perrin Aybara of the Two Rivers, in Andor, the personal friend and emissary of the Dragon Reborn,” and the woman to Perrin as “Alliandre Maritha Kigarin, Queen of Ghealdan, Blessed of the Light, Defender of Garen’s Wall.” Perrin’s mouth almost drops open, but he gets a hold of himself and bows after too long a pause, thinking he has no idea how to deal with a queen. Alliandre tells him she thought she should come to him, and mentions that four days ago Illian fell to the Dragon Reborn, and he was crowned its king. Faile whispers “And seven days gone, the Seanchan took Ebou Dar,” so low that only Perrin hears her; Perrin is confused, but repeats her words aloud, trying not to be shaken by the news. This startles Berelain and Annoura, but not Alliandre, who comments that he is very well informed. Perrin smells that she is fearful and uncertain under her cool façade, and admires her ability to hide it. Faile makes a comment about the usefulness of merchants in spreading information, and Perrin realizes she is telling him that Rand knows about Ebou Dar.
Could Faile really want him to…? No, it was unthinkable. Blinking, he realized he had missed something Alliandre had said. “Your pardon, Alliandre,” he said politely. “I was thinking about Rand—the Dragon Reborn.” Of course it was unthinkable!
Everyone stared at him, even Lini and Maighdin and Breane. Annoura’s eyes had gone wide, and Gallenne’s mouth hung open. Then it hit him. He had just called the Queen by name.
Alliandre is the only one who doesn’t seem surprised, and merely repeats that she thought coming to him in secret was the best course. Trying not to “act the hayfoot” again, Perrin answers carefully that the secrecy was wise, but sooner or later she will have to come into the open, “one way or another.” He asks why she came in person at all, when a letter would have sufficed.
“Will you declare for Rand or not? Either way, have no fear about getting back to Bethal safely.” A good point, that. Whatever else frightened her, being here alone must.
Faile, Berelain, and Annoura are all watching him intently, and he wonders if they all think he’s going to mess up again. Alliandre meanwhile avoids his main question and answers that she wanted to see Perrin in person to get the measure of him, in lieu of meeting the Dragon Reborn himself. She also mentions seeing his banners; Perrin scowls and replies they are meant to be seen, and assures her there are no plans to raise Manetheren in Ghealdan. He asks again for her decision, telling her Rand can have a hundred thousand soldiers there in the blink of an eye, and Alliandre again dodges the question, bringing up the rumors about Artur Hawkwing’s armies returned, Aiel sacking villages in the area, and the Tower broken. Annoura tells her sharply that the latter is Aes Sedai business; Alliandre flinches at her tone, but watches Perrin, and he wonders if she wants reassurances from him. He tells her the only Aiel in Ghealdan are with him, Rand has already dealt with the Seanchan once and can do so again, and the rebel Aes Sedai support Rand. He invites her to sit and be comfortable, and sits down himself. No one else moves for a moment, and Perrin asks Faile to speak to Alliandre about “the right way to go”; Faile smiles but stays silent.
Abruptly Alliandre put out her cup to one side without looking, as if expecting a tray to be there. One was, barely in time to catch the cup, and Maighdin, who held it, muttered something Perrin hoped Faile had not heard. Faile was death on servants using that sort of language. He started to rise as Alliandre approached him, but to his shock, she knelt gracefully in front of him, catching his hands with hers. Before he knew what she was doing, she twisted so her hands were back-to-back between his palms. She clung so hard her hands must have hurt; for sure, he was not certain he could loose himself without hurting her.
“Under the Light,” she said firmly, looking up at him, “I, Alliandre Maritha Kigarin, pledge my fealty and service to Lord Perrin Aybara of the Two Rivers, now and for all time, save that he chooses to release me of his own will. My lands and throne are his, and I yield them to his hand. So I do swear.”
Gallenne and Annoura (and Perrin) are stunned, but Faile immediately begins whispering the ritual phrases that accept her pledge, while Berelain nods at him furiously to accept as well. Perrin ignores them both and asks Alliandre why, pointing out that he’s been told he’s ta’veren, and she might reconsider this later. Alliandre laughs shakily and replies she hopes very much that he is ta’veren, as nothing else will save Ghealdan; she cannot protect her country, so her duty demands she find someone who can. She would have sworn to the Dragon Reborn if she could have, but in swearing to Perrin, she swears to him. She begs him to please accept.
This was everything Rand could want and more, but Perrin Aybara was just a blacksmith. He was! Could he still tell himself that if he did this thing? Alliandre stared up at him pleadingly. Did ta’veren work on themselves, he wondered. “Under the Light, I, Perrin Aybara, accept your pledge…”
Afterwards Alliandre kisses his hands in relief, embarrassing Perrin terribly, and he realizes he doesn’t know what to do next. Faile and Berelain are beaming at him, but Annoura is still in shock (and so is Maighdin). Perrin abruptly changes the subject to the Prophet, and Alliandre confirms Balwer’s intelligence that Masema is in Abila, to Perrin’s surprise. Faile then gently kicks Perrin out of the tent, and Perrin bows to Alliandre and leaves, taking Gallenne with him. Outside Gallenne exclaims that now he’s seen ta’veren work for true; Perrin hears a commotion from the Mayener section of camp, and he and Gallenne head off to see what the problem is.
Faile uses the excuse of hustling the servants (including a still-staring Maighdin) out of the tent to make a discreet hand signal to the Cha Faile members nearby, whereupon they casually spread out so that no one can approach the tent without letting them alert her first; she’s mostly worried that Perrin will decide to come back and try to make Alliandre comfortable with her vow. Berelain comes up and makes a snide remark about the quality of the servants Faile’s found, incidentally mentioning that one of them is a very weak wilder, according to Annoura; Faile files that information away and coolly replies that she always thought Berelain was “fit for hiring servants.” Berelain’s not sure how to take that, and Faile asks Annoura to ward them against eavesdropping, very satisfied at Berelain’s pique that Annoura obliges her.
Childishly satisfying, Faile admitted, when she should be focused on the matter at hand. She almost bit her lip in aggravation. She did not doubt her husband’s love, but she could not treat Berelain as the woman deserved, and that forced her, against her will, to play a game with Perrin too often as the gaming board. And the prize, so Berelain believed. If only Perrin did not sometimes behave as if he might be.
Alliandre remarks to Faile that her husband’s “bluff exterior” hides a sharp skill at Daes Dae’mar, and that she has never been maneuvered so quickly to a decision; Faile conceals her amusement, thinking that southlanders were so steeped in the Game of Houses that Perrin’s simple honesty always confused them. She answers that it is clear Alliandre does not want to return to Bethal, and asks if her oath to Perrin and vice versa isn’t enough. Berelain and Annoura silently close ranks with her opposite Alliandre; she is a bit surprised that the Aes Sedai is playing along, but not that Berelain is.
In a way, that irritated her. Once she had despised Berelain; she still hated her, deep and hot, but grudging respect had replaced contempt. The woman knew when their “game” had to be put aside. If not for Perrin, Faile thought she might actually have liked her! Briefly, to extinguish that hateful thought, she pictured herself shaving Berelain bald.
Alliandre affects unconcern, and replies to Faile that she means to keep her oath, but had hoped for more; she will be vulnerable once Perrin leaves, and Masema will be displeased if he learns of her oath. Faile tells her that if she wants more, she should give more, and says that Alliandre should accompany them south to meet with Masema. Alliandre is aghast at the notion, but Faile tells her it isn’t a request. Alliandre is astounded, but finally stammers that she will obey, and Faile is grimly gratified that her instincts about Alliandre were correct. Faile then tells her that she should write to her nobles and tell them a man in the south has raised the banner of Manetheren; Alliandre points out that half of them will immediately tell Masema this news. Faile agrees, and says Alliandre will also write Masema with the same information, and tell him she is gathering men to deal with the problem. Annoura is impressed, commenting that no one will know who is who, and Berelain laughs in delight.
“My Lady,” Alliandre breathed, “I said that my Lord Perrin is formidable. May I add that his wife is every bit as formidable?”
Faile tried not to bask too visibly. Now she had to send word to her people in Bethal. In a way, she regretted that. Explaining to Perrin would have been more than difficult, but even he could not have kept his temper if she had kidnapped the Queen of Ghealdan.
Gallenne and Perrin push through a crowd of Mayener soldiers to find some of their scouts leading seven ragged prisoners; the scouts have burns and smell of smoke, and one of them explains that they had come across a mob burning a farm, with the people still inside.
“A woman tried to get out a window, and one of these scum bashed her head in. Knowing how Lord Aybara feels, we put a stop to it. We were too late to save anybody, but we caught these seven. The rest got away.”
One of the prisoners says that people are often tempted by the Shadow, and must be “reminded of the cost”, and threatens dire retribution on them if they lay a hand on any of the Prophet’s men.
“Hang them,” Perrin said. Again, he heard that thunder.
He makes himself watch the executions. Aram asks hesitantly if the Lord Dragon will approve of this, suggesting perhaps the farm people were serving the Shadow; Perrin stares at him in shock, and tells him Rand would have ordered the same as he did. To himself, he hopes he’s right. Suddenly thunder peals right above them, and a few raindrops fall. It only lasts a few moments, but everyone is astonished, and Aram asks if this means the weather is changing at last.
“I don’t know,” [Perrin] said. What was it Gaul had said? “Everything changes, Aram.” He had just never thought that he would have to change, too.
Commentary
Okay, so I may be something of a dumbass, because I was CONVINCED, for some reason, that this scene with Alliandre took place in Winter’s Heart.
I have no idea why I thought this was the case, as it makes no goddamn sense when you consider that Alliandre was right along for the kidnapping fun with Faile et al, and that could only logically be after Faile had forcibly attached Alliandre to her entourage. Which means this scene had to take place before all that. Duh.
I dunno. The only reason I can come up for why I was sure this was somewhere else is because I love this scene, and therefore subconsciously decided it couldn’t be in my least favorite WOT book. Because that’s just crazy talk!
Except, well. Here it is. Mea culpa, and alla that. I think we can take this as proof that from TPOD on my memory for what happens in WOT is officially Sketchy.
Anyway. This is the kind of scene that Jordan does so often and well that I think I have to accuse him of being the reason why I like this kind of scene in the first place. I’ve said many times before that one of my favorite things in fiction is to get the outsider’s perspective on a character we know well, but really there are very few sf authors I can think of offhand (Lois Bujold is one, and Steven Brust as well) who pull off so well getting across that outsider’s perspective while the story is being told from the well-known character’s POV. It’s a nice trick if you can do it, and apparently not many can.
And honestly one of the most fun bits about it was Maighdin/Morgase’s barely-noticed reaction. Yeah, I imagine having a queen show up and swear fealty to this guy would be beyond shocking to Morgase. In one way it would have been nice to have her POV reaction to the scene, but in another it’s more interesting to just imagine what’s going through her mind.
One thing I didn’t really realize the first time around but definitely noted this time, is how much of what Perrin says (in all innocence) to Alliandre can be construed from an alternative perspective to be downright threatening. The line about her having no fear about getting back to Bethal safely, for instance, or when he mentions how quickly Rand can have an army there. I mean, we know that Perrin was just trying to reassure her, but from an outside POV, yikes.
Faile: My earlier mini-epiphany re: Faile has done a bit to ease my irritation with her, but I still have to say she is an extremely confusing character to keep track of when it comes to logic and motivations. Why can’t she “treat Berelain as she deserved,” again? And what way is that, exactly? Shaving her bald, I suppose? And why is it that she feels forced to play this “game” with/for/on Perrin? What are the rules? Who made it up? Who’s the referee? What is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow? And if a tree falls in the forest and kills a mime, does anyone care?
‘Tis a puzzlement!
Seriously, I wonder if I’m just failing some minimum deviousness requirement that would otherwise let me get what is going on in Faile’s head 95% of the time. Maybe it shouldn’t be this opaque to me, but really I’m just kind of tired and wanting to lay down now, so, whatever.
As for Berelain, while from here on out I would like to smack her into the next zipcode as a general rule, I do like that she is portrayed as being consistent with her character, in that Business Is Business, first and foremost—a professionalism so well adhered to that even Faile has to admire it.
Elyas: Yay, Elyas! I remember I was honestly surprised when he reappeared, as I figured he had pretty much accomplished his purpose back in the TEOTW – namely, introducing Perrin to the wolves—and was never going to show up again. Silly me.
His popping up again does remind me of at least one reason why this Perrin plotline sucks more than the other Perrin plotlines in WOT thus far, and it is a reason that has nothing to do with Faile or Berelain or Sevanna: the almost total dearth of wolves. Seriously, where are the wolves?
Oh, yeah—being fended off by Perrin’s giant wave of EMO.
Okay, okay, I get it. Perrin has a point. A lot of them died at Dumai’s Wells, and technically it was Perrin’s fault, sort of. It would probably suck more if Perrin didn’t feel incredibly bad about that. Emo jokes aside, I’m not really blaming Perrin for having an ethical dilemma about getting the wolves involved in the affairs of men anymore. But none of that changes how much less fun it is to not have them around.
Of course, my memory for events from here on out is, as noted, very unreliable, so maybe there are wolves in this plotline (before the very end of it, I mean) and I’m just not remembering. I hope so. MOAR WOLVESplzkthx.
Last but not least, I suppose I have to discuss Elyas’s advice to Perrin re: women. Or re: Saldaean women, I guess.
…I’m kind of not knowing what to say here, honestly. I feel like I should have a strong opinion about this, and I sort of do and sort of don’t at the same time. Phrases like “sweeping generalizations” and “suspiciously monolithic culture/gender traits” float enticingly by, but are all undermined by the fact that in-story, Elyas’s advice is apparently completely correct.
Which should make it worse, not better, but the moment I realize that something wonky like this is justified within the story I kind of have to make a subconscious decision to either chuck the book across the room, or cultivate a deliberate apathy toward the wonkiness. (Which is how I got through David Eddings’ books.)
I’m not saying this is the right thing to do, and maybe I’ll get re-annoyed in proper fashion at this later when I’m not so tired, but right now I’m making a command decision to let sloth beat wrath on this one.
So instead of a *headdesk*, I’ll just kind of lay my head gently on the desk, and close… my eyes… for just a min
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Post. Omg squee.
How come the main Reread page where all the links are doesn’t show Part 6, much less Part 7? How are people finding the new postings without those links? I must be missing something…
Thanks for the post Leigh! Looks like a long one!
What is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?
That’s a highly debated subject. What we know for sure is that in order to maintain air-speed velocity, a swallow needs to beat its wings forty-three times every second. At least if it’s not an African swallow. They have been said to carry coconuts by the husk but they’re not migratory, so they will probably never appear in Randland and we can stick to European swallows for WoT-related discussions.
Ender’s Ghost @2
Please direct your eyes to the top left corner of this here site where you will find a most helpful Latest Posts section for your viewing and re-read commenting pleasure. Use it wisely…
My week begins with Monty Python and ends with Monty Python. With yummy WoT sandwiched therein.
I’d call that a good week.
Thank you for the post, Leigh! And as a one time customer service phone person, I grinned. A lot.
(More later, as I am currently wrangling with the unemployment folk… *implores ceiling for patience*)
Awesome, Leigh. I also like this scene, and now I’m wondering if you’ve also forgotten about my favorite scene being in this book. (I’ve said before on this re-read, POD is definitely unsatisfying in a lot of ways, but some individual scenes are great…)
I actually really like Faile in this chapter. For some reason her whispering the proper words to Perrin at a volume no one else can hear is one of my favorite sneaky moments from her, and a tidbit that I remember vividly. (Although I always wonder, does no one notice her lips moving?) And her POV makes me giggle every time, even as I can’t always decide what the hell she’s talking about.
I’m gonna (presumably) make myself a target here, and say that while I like Elyas’ character, I always thought it was kind of shame he came back. Apart from delivering a Moral at the end of Perrin’s interrogation of the Shaido in COT, I can’t recall him doing, well, anything. And he loses something once he becomes an adjunct, rather than a mentor, to Perrin.
(I have the same problem with Thom, by the way, who I recently realized hasn’t had a POV since Book 4. This made me sad.)
Great Post Leigh
Did you mean an African, or European Swallow?
OH Randalator got there first.
Mis-behavin
that david eddings shot was hiliarous!
you havent had this good of an intro in some time Leigh lol.
givin me my life on this friday lol!
keep up the good work
Re: Faile not being able to treat Berelain “the way she deserves”
Based on various comments by and about Deira, her mother, Faile would ordinarily (by Saldaen standards) challenge Berelain to a knife-fight. :)
This is one of those excellent chapters that make my reading speed increase greatly. Love the whole dynamic.
Ok, now that I’ve read the post…
Re: suspiciously monolithic culture/gender traits – yeah, that strikes me as a little off, too. But Faile’s a heir to the crown, and all along has been sort of the prototype Saldaean, so the fact that it applies to her doesn’t seem too bad.
And I’m not offended by the cultural traits presented here. *Bemused* as all get out, grateful not to be part of it, disturbed to my southern roots by a culture that dismisses politeness and keeping your temper and promotes shouting as effective communication. But not offended…it’s certainly egalitarian, unlike Far Madding (which Elyas references here as a contrast). It’s…interesting that strong women in Far Madding expect men to speak when spoken to and call them boy, while in Saldaea strong women expect men to shout at them. Weird. Disturbing. But not offensive, since the women expect to get to shout back.
This is the first reread post where I’ve actually reread the chapter in preparation for it, and it’s apparent from the depth with which you quote from it, Leigh, that it is a favorite! I like it too, and like you just noticed this morning how threatening Perrin sounds. I like his internal monologue – speak directly and to the point, don’t waste the Queen’s time – and how it results in “You’ll have to declare openly, one way or the other…Sorry, didn’t mean to ignore you, was thinking about Rand, I mean the Dragon Reborn, you know, and how he could have 100,000 troops including Aiel here w/o notice…oh, don’t worry that you won’t be able to leave safely.” Heh heh.
Disturbed about AS treatment of Warder “renegades”. How does that even work – wouldn’t a renegade just be controlled via the Bond?
Confused by your confusion about Faile as this seems one of her clearest, most straightforward chapters. She supports Perrin, has to work with Berelain since they need the First and were assigned her by the Dragon Reborn, so can’t shave her bald as she “deserves”.
Amused by her thought that if not for Perrin she’d actually *like* Berelain! Gasp horrors!
Thanks for the post! Is it Monday yet? *twitch*
Thank you Leigh! We’ve been lurking and waiting, patiently, I might add. Happy recovery from moving weekend.
I seem to be confused a lot today (see previous post) but I’m confused here about much of the conversation between Perrin and Alliandre, and Berelain and Faile, and why was Faile going to have her little army kidnap Alliandre? I guess I am just not politically astute at all. And I too wonder if I’m just failing some minimum deviousness requirement that would otherwise let me get what is going on in Faile’s head 95% of the time.
Glad Elyas is back and helps straighten out Perrin. Somebody needs to.
Aren’t there wolves around when the Darkhouds appear? I don’t remember either….but we’ll get there…..
Yeah, Leigh, we know our calls are important to you… But, heh, I’m totally OK with a one-chapter post today. That means we have Gaul(!) and Elyas(!) and no Sevanna or Thereva or Galina! ::rattles spears::
Actually, big thanks Leigh. I have no doubt you are exhausted, but you still managed to have time for us. Just thinking of taking one bed up five flights of stairs is enough to exhaust me!
LOL!! Great post Leigh.
I’ll have more later, but for now: African or European swallow? ;D
(Hmm. I like Randalator’s answer best.)
Bzzz™.
I think Jordan did a good job here of creating a character who elicits the response from everyone that men generally do have when trying to understand women: utter confusion. Generalizations and exaggerations abound, of course – most women aren’t as crazy as Faile – but I think he uses them with impressive efficacy to show one sex how baffling they can be to the other. Not an easy feat.
Tektonica@11:
Aside from forcing her to swear fealty, it appears her reason for choosing that method was to try to get Perrin to lose his temper so he’d yell at her:
Thanks for the post! Love the Angel quote for the cut. It’s going to be my voice mail message now.
I think the “way she *should* be treating Berelain” is much the way she expects Perrin *should* be treating here – that is, as a sulky child. However, due to the real political situations they’re stuck in, she can’t do that, because they have to focus on the task at hand.
Does the reference to shaving Berelain’s head foreshadow her taking rank with the Seanchan?!
JanDSedai
Interesting thought, and I can so see Fortuona collecting Berelain into the Seanchan hive.. er I mean nobility.
Just tell me that Perrin won’t be expected to shave as well.
Mis-troubled by a bald wolf
How are people finding the new postings without those links?
If there are no latest comments you can search for one of the tags at the end of the post (e. g. Robert Jordan). Those lists are updated automatically.
She did not doubt her husband’s love, but she could not treat Berelain as the woman deserved, and that forced her, against her will, to play a game with Perrin too often as the gaming board.
I always thought this means that Faile would treat Berelain with respect if the “game” wasn’t getting in the way, but it makes more sense that she can’t fight Berelain the way she wants to.
Eh, just because it was mentioned:
Thom is my Second Favorite Character in the series, just a few steps behind Mat, actually, and I’d love another POV from him. But then, I’d imagine at some point in ToM, we’ll have one…perhaps we’ll even see Moiraine (for the first time in too damn long) through his eyes. (Lovely, no?)
As for the Chapter: I was happy Elyas came back. Sure, he pretty much gets given the task of permanent scout, along with Gual, but eh…at least he’s not stuck in that cave nursing his wounds anymore.
Perrin/Faile/Berelain: Smack.
Fealty I: For about three seconds after reading that, I thought Perrin had just become King of Ghealdan.
Fealty II: It was also cool seeing Perrin get some royal love.
And, that’s it for now.
Elyas is aware that Saldean women are similar (but not identical) to drama queens.
Really, I think that is a large part of it. I’ve been there, often fun, never a dull moment, but suppressing the urge to smack someone gets old.
Why is Masuri mad at Perrin?
I really like Berelain, except for the bag-Perrin-to-hurt-Faile bit.
Leigh: I loved that intro! And outro! Classic!
Elyas is MOA! I always love when he turns up. If only he had been a more prominent character throughout the series. Incidentally, did we ever learn why he left his AS? Was it simply because the reds wanted to try and gentle him? Or was it because when gentling wouldn’t have worked, he would probably have been killed? Was Rina in full support of the reds, or was she trying to protect him? I just wonder why it seems like she would torture him slowly when she found him, if she knows why he ended up running away. I looked at encyclopedia WOT but it didn’t seem to offer any explanations.
This quote by Faile is what drives me up the wall about this stupid triangle. Both she and Berelaine know that it is basically a game being played between them, while Perrin pretty much has no clue about most of it. I almost shudder to think about all the wasted time spent on this, and all the very good productiveness that could have been if they weren’t fighting over Perrin. This also shows a lot of why I dislike Berelaine for most of her appearance in the series. She is chasing after a married man who obviously isn’t interested in her, and continues to do so because she enjoys playing her game. It’s just so dumb! She has the ability to be such a capable leader and dignitary, but most of the time we never get to see it!
Tektonica@11 “why was Faile going to have her little army kidnap Alliandre?”
I think she was going to kidnapAlliandre to basically force her to swear an oath to Perrin, but she decided to come meet with them instead.
Also- Hooray for exclamation points!!!
Welcome back Elyas! He’s one of the few returned characters from previous books that I actually like seeing again. Ordinarily, this conservation of characters thing gets on my nerves.
This is also a much better chapter than the previous one. It definitely stands out as one of the better moments from the book.
Maighden’s moment of shock and fumble handed method of service is an example of one of the things I really like about Jordan’s writing. It’s just a little hint of how Maighden’s affected by her experience and though you don’t see it directly, it’s one of the small bits and pieces that adds up to how her perspective of Perrin changes.
Oddly enough, Faile has never confused me. Not because she makes sense…she’s totally illogical in a hundred different ways. But that’s true of a lot of people, and her faulty reasoning makes sense to me given her perspective.
At the time that I first read this book, I was a lot more like Perrin…the possibility of raising one’s voice to a woman one cares for was just shocking.
But when you get right down to it, Perrin’s progress toward learning to deal with his wife is sort of a ham-handed instruction tool to teach boys who know nothing about women the difference between being a spineless “Good guy” and a man. I’m probably going to get in trouble for saying that, but I still think that’s part of what’s going on here. Jordan just has a tendency to use large stereotypes to illustrate small points, sometimes.
And I’m going to shut up before I completely stop making sense.
I forgot just how hilarious it was that Perrin’s wife is basically the successor to a throne, and now her “ladies-in-waiting” if you will consist of 3 sitting rulers (or in one case, recently secretly absconded ruler).
And he wonders why he finds it difficult to keep things under control.
It is
to laugh.
Wheee! Just getting back from the land of TvTropes… Thanks for that Leigh! XD
RE: Elyas’ advice… okay, my issue with his advice isn’t the advice itself, so much as it’s validity. Any other time something is stated outright by just about ANYONE in WOT, it’s unreliable. And here we have Elyas dishing out the truth? Highly suspect, if you ask me… which is why I didn’t believe it at first, and then (on my first read) was glad when Faile was kidnapped because I didn’t want things to be all lovey-dovey between Perrin and Faile. Call me mean-spirited, I enjoy plots with conflict, and at least there was something going on in their relationship, even if all it was doing was illustrating just how short Perrin and Faile’s time together has been, and thereby their lack of knowledge about each other, regardless of the fact that they’re married.
Of course, how was I to know (on my first read) that Emo-Perrin has ultimate power and is very difficult to destroy… GAH!
Obviously, I’ll take love-dovey over the giant plate of ARGH! we’ve been dealt over and over again re: Perrin and the Never-Ending-Rescue.
Thanks for the post, Leigh! Have a great nap, erm, weekend!
Leigh – you were smokin’ today.
Call centre! Swallows! David Eddings! Making Perrin interesting!
And you can carry furniture up many stories too.
Legend.
@25 – Great point. And a Cairheinian noble (Breane). And Lini, who has been schooling queens for 50 years. Interesting tentful of folk.
blindillusion @21 : Does that list include New Spring? If not, I find the number of Lan’ POV disturbingly high, but if yes, I feel like there should be more of Siuan.
@21: Thanks for the database. I actually have a doc of *takes a deep breath* percentage by word count POVs of every character in the series that I started compiling in a few months of recession-fueled unemployment. *Blushes shades of red and runs to hide* I’d be happy to answer questions on it.
@29: Glancing at that list, I’d say it has to include NS, and not include TGS. The Moiraine and Lan POVs are too high because of NS (in fact, Lan has no POVs at all without NS). Siuan actually had only one very brief POV in NS. If TGS were included, she’d have several more.
Subbak. I’m not sure. That list was complied by Hari Coplin in October of last year.
I just posted it for the relevant Thom POVs.
On the wot wiki they have some great breakdowns of POV by chapter, etc. See http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Knife_of_Dreams/Statistical_analysis for one book. They do have a combined page, but I can’t find it from my phone.
Another fantastic post Leigh…thanks for making my (our) Friday!
I recall reading Elyas re-entry to the story and finally gaining a touch of understanding about Faile. Just like Perrin, I had to be told.
Completely agree that the exchange with Alliandre and Perrin with the other characters interaction was extremely well written.
Great post, thanks Leigh!
@30 Thanks for answering about NS – Lan before I even asked. Hmm what other questions shall I think and have you answer before I can type them?
Leigh this was exceptional stuff!!
kudos!!
Ashaman salute to you with a rolling ring of fire and earth!!
well, tis late and i’m tired,will get back in the morning
sleep well and wake people
when you do that is ;) :P :D
Sigh. Perrin the doofus (am I misremembering him being quite smart and observant in TEoTW?) attracts an important follower and affects the fate of Gheladan without ever understanding what was going on. Yet again… Seriously, he looks really dumb in this chapter, IMHO.
Faile, for all that I hate her, is much more competent here. Maybe _she_ should have been Rand’s ambassador? Or Berelein? Oh, and BTW, once Perrin impulsively abandoned secrecy, why didn’t he start to carry Rand’s banner? Might as well show all comers that he represents the DR.
Elayas appears… to play marriage counselor? Because the drama was so massive that it couldn’t have been overcome otherwise?! Speak about a character being diminished.
Well, maybe he’ll be instrumental in helping Perrin to deal with truly important things (finally) in ToM, but ugh.
And BTW what’s the deal with his renegade status? If Rina thought that he ought to be punished, she would have hunted him down, no? And from what we have seen and heard,I strongly doubt that AS would interfere with another’s warder.
What happened? Does Elyas carry a grudge that Rina didn’t defend him against the Reds? Is she feeling guilty and unwilling to confront him? What? I thought that she’d get captured by Seanchan at some point and Elayas would have to rescue her, but no, it didn’t happen so far.
As to those murderous thugs? Perrin should have been remembering them when he was waffling about Masema’s fate (for, oh 4(!) books). They, and many others like them did what they did because they knew that due to Masema they wouldn’t have to answer for it.
BFC idea – Warder bond is broken or can be ignored/blurred in T’AR/Wolf Dream? See Elyas (maybe wolfy bond is stronger than Warder bond so Elyas is only worried about being seen)so this could be a way for Rand to sneak to SG without the knife???
I’ve never really understood why people were so annoyed with Faile. I’ve always liked her. True, I liked her more when I was younger and first read the series, but I still like her now. Why can’t she treat Berelain as a competent, intelligent woman? Because the bitch is skeezing on her man! Or something like that. I can relate to her. While I was dating one of my exes, this dumb whore (sorry, still hate her) was alllll over him allll the time and while I thought I could like her if the circumstances were different, I just couldn’t. Even though I knew I should’ve been madder at my boyfriend of the time (the other woman never made any promises to me; my bf was the one cheating, not her; etc etc), the logic of it didn’t make me hate her any less. In fact, knowing how illogical the whole thing was just made me even madder! So yeah, I totally get Faile.
about misremembering where the swearing fealty happens in the storyline. There is a second swearing with similar wording from one of the prisoners to Faile but I think that is in Crossroads of Twilight not Winter’s Heart.
There are so many books in the long plot that it is understandable that the cool bits may get moved around in the remembering.
Ender’s Ghost@2,
In addition to 3. Randalator’s suggestion, you can go to the main page and on the left, where it says Tor.com Bloggers, you will see Leigh Butler’s name (or if it doesn’t show up, hit “show all”). Click on it, and it will show you a page that contains all her blog posts.
Isilel @36
Who’s to say what’s going on in an Aes Sedai’s mind. She might consider him her ace in the hole. She’s a Green. Capable woodsmen and fighters always welcome. We know that if she really wanted him to come, he wouldn’t be able to resist.
bawambi @37
Only the Aes Sedai holding it can mute or or mask the Warder bond.
Also… Elyas is apparently familiar enough with Saldaean culture to refer to Faile as a leopard. The exact same word Perrin’s mother-in-law used to describe the women of her family. That probably sealed it for Perrin regarding the veracity of Elyas’ advice.
Thanks for the reread.
Alot of people keep asking “Why the dislike for Faile?”
I personally did not really like her from the beginning, before Berelain came on the scene. She is obnoxious on the boat to Tear, manipulative in the Stone, annoying and violent in the Ways. It just goes on from there.
(I absolutely could not stand her when she was using Loial to manipulate Perrin.)
I do not like Berelain’s part in the “game” and agree that Faile has every right to hate her. Her actions in this matter are dispicable, but her other roles in the books are very likeable. Faile plays along with her game, treating her clueless husband poorly. In addition to playing this game with Berelain, Faile keeps secrets from and lies to her husband on a regular basis.
She does seem to get a little better, as is shown in this chapter.
JennB@42:
I’m in your camp on Faile. I’m sure Wetlandernw will have all sorts of character insight on her, but I think she is Ms. Manipulator. It’s ALL about her, until it became ALL about Perrin and her. To hell with the DR and TG and the fate of the world. Oh, she’s “fierce”, a leopard. Bah. She’s selfish and childish.
I know NO ONE ever talks to anybody in these books, but really, they’re married. Why can’t she say to Perrin, “Berelain is playing games with me for your affection and I am just going to ignore her now. Don’t think I don’t love you or care, but I refuse to stoop as low as she does.” End of story. Game over. Plot moves forward.
If I were a man, I’d run as fast as possible from any woman so confusing and manipulative. No wonder you guys are writing all sorts of things about women being confusing in their communication. Please don’t judge us by Faile. Argh.
Eugh. I hate Perrin. Especially ‘Emo Wolfman PErrin’. AND Emo ‘Where’s my WIFE?’ Perrin. Eugh, Eugh, Eugh.
However, I do agree, the Alliandre fealty scene is completely awesome.
But it’s followed by the kidnapping so… whatever.
Release date and dust jacket description for ToM.
http://www.dragonmount.com/News/?p=1293
Hmm, early hints of Aram’s ultimate path. Never noticed that before.
And if a tree falls in the forest and kills a mime, does anyone care?
No- but if one fell on my husband…
What can I say? Right at this moment I actually am in sympathy with Faile. I mean, I always _want_ to like her, because of the whole Hunter for the Horn thing. But, really, the whole “game” with Berlain makes me crazy. (If you are old enough to be the lady of the manor, you’re old enough to end this stupid game.)
However, we are having some Perrin/Faile interaction at my house at the minute. The spouse and I are working on two slightly overlapping, weather dependent outdoor projects with less than satisfying results. It would go so much better if he would just follow my schedule, D&#*it!!!! (Oh and not take my materials to the recycling center while I am at work…)
I am having a moment of clarity regarding the reality of working at cross purposes. (It happens to the best of us.)
Cloudmist @@@@@ 8:
Faile already tried the knife-fight idea in the Stone of Tear (tSR), and Berelain, who is highly trained in unarmed combat, wiped the floor with her. That is one of the more entertaining scenes in the whole series. Faile would be a fool to even think about trying that again.
This too, for me, is a favorite scene in the series. Well written and “directed” I remember how deep you could get into Perrin’s head in these kind of chapters.
Oh yeah, HURRY UP AND GET TO CHAPTER 12!!!!!! I had always believed that Moiraine killed Asmodean, but then I did a re-read and when I got to Chap 12 of TPOD, the pieces fell into place and BAM! It became obvious that Greandal killed Asmodean. I can’t wait to start the discussion next week!!!! get to ch 12, get to ch 12…. ***chomps bit***
Amalisa – Does the ceiling ever answer?
Tektonica – Probably not tonight. I personally like Faile a lot, but just now I haven’t got the energy to try to provide character insights for people who already dislike her.
adrielmoonstar – Hope the issues get resolved! Good luck on the projects.
*cough*
Bags of cool- yay for Elyas:)
Always pictured Sam Elliot playing him.
Woof™.
BTW- I am liking Wet’s idea for the BFC- the wolf thingy. I think it has possibilities. The wolves way of communicating and retaining thoughts across time and as a collective may hold some nugget of how to battle the baddies.
Woof™.
Tektonica@43:
I doubt any of us mean to judge you all by her. I do think, however, that Jordan crafted this particular fictional character in such a manner as to exaggerate (and thus illustrate) some of the particular communication issues that often do arise between the sexes. Certainly, most real women aren’t as manipulative as this caricature, but the frustration that Perrin encounters in trying to guess what his wife won’t tell him is a common human experience. As much as problems arising from poor (nonexistent) communication are a common theme in WOT, I can’t help but think he was intentionally using Faile as an exaggerated example of some of the real pitfalls in communication between the sexes.
I have gone on record as saying I do not like Faile. However it didn’t start off that way. I thought she was resourceful, observant, and capable when she first stepped onto the scene. As we get to know her, we find out that she is still those things yet they get drowned out by her manipulativeness, her inexperience in the romance department, and she happens to be a little bat shyt crazy to any other race besides Saldeans. Its chapters like this, ones where she is on business and not personal things, that display a little bit of her original awesomeness. She is maturing rapidly however, and that is good because when she gets stupid then Perrin gets stupid. BTW love how she puts the screws on Alliandre and how Berry and Annora fall in like they gameplanned the whole thing beforehand.
I do not think Perrin is stupid, he just ain’t quicksilver. And his general ernestness puts him in good stead when it comes to royalty because they always think they are reading between the lines of what he says and are surprised when he turns out to mean exactly what he said. There’s an Aes Sedai described that way as well, but alas she didn’t make it to unification because HalimaGar twisted her head off. I know one of you smart WOT-ers know which one I mean, her name escapes me at the moment.
Aneeewayz, I love this scene and the ones before this leading up to the capture and PLOD, at least the scenes involving Perrin. Like the dismemberment by axe scene , I think all these royals flockin to his banner is in prep for his role in the last battle and beyond. What that role is I do not know but these are consistent. Just from the perspective of looking at it years later and older, the process is so clear even if one does not know what the final result may be. (Brandon, Maria, and Harriet are some of the luckiest people alive because they know where all the journeys end. JR, R.I.P.) Rand, Mat, and Perrin all had to go through their seperate crucibles in order to be strong enough to face what is coming. Rand has it the hardest b/c his role is the most important. More folks tend to gun for the head honcho anyway. Mat’s and Perrin’s moments are hard too, yet you don’t get the sense that they’ve been beaten down as much as Rand has, at least to this point.
Mat and Perrin crucible moments are like coursework. Discovery of their power and Realization of their Destiny according to the pattern are the entrance exams to Leadership 101. Then you get the Midterm and the Final Exam (Last Battle). While Mat’s general rascaliness and his brush with the bad ju-ju dagger has him behind the curve, Perrin gets his first moment (discovery) even earlier than Rand does. Perrin also picks up realization fairly quickly as well. Perrin’s problem comes in Leadership 101, not because he isn’t a good leader but because he doesn’t know that he’s a good one. His Midterm (the Faile rescue) didn’t go so well even if he did pass it, and he knows he has to study real hard in TOM so he can pass the Final in MoL.
Mat’s problem is in Realization; he tries to deny his destiny and his importance in the world from day 1. Because of his Discovery phase when he went to Rhuidean he is currently killing Leadership 101. Fortuona was a test but not the Midterm. This comes with the Moraine Heist that we are drooling to see in Towers.
As we all know Rand is in the Honors course with a professor who hates his guts, would love to see him fail, and intentionally and consistently gives him the hardest assignments and study guides written in Swahili.
How I got on this track I do not know, I started off with something on my mind and got off on a tangent. Closing the comment that never ends with the customary….
Shadowkiller
Squee to Leigh for mentioning my two (other) favorite authors– Lois McMaster Bujold and Steven Brust! Read them; you’ll like it.
I was gonna question BenPatient about three sitting rulers, and then realized he was counting Berelain. However, Berelain has not sworn oaths to either Perrin or Faile, and in no fashion, shape, or form is Berelain a lady-in-waiting to Faile. But otherwise, this was a rich council.
In fact, you could refer to the people kidnapped with Faile as the Once and Future Queens– Maighdin/Morgase for past, Alliandre for present, and Faile (presumably) for future.
(And Lacile and Arrela, and Bain and Chiad)
On the question of why Elyas left his AS. Somewhere it was explained that Elyas left because the Reds were thinking he had some kind of power, and he did have to get away.
As for this chapter, not so big on it as many seem to be. Perrin is annoying, Faile is childish, taveren strikes again so it works out ok but not a lot was smart here.
JennB@45:
Thanks for the link. Why can’t we have the cover on the right? I know it’s not the final version, hope hope hope, but Mat still needs a hat. I thought he left the pink clothes behind in Ebou Dar?
Adrialmoonstar@47: LOL. I’ve been there too. It does happen in RL, even with best intentions. Good luck communicating!
Welanternw@50: I await your insights patiently. Relax! Get some sleep! I hope you don’t think I was being sarcastic. I truly value your insights, which I seem to need desperately, as I’m sure it will help me tolerate the Neverending Plod.
bkaul@53: Whew! Glad to know you think she is an exaggeration! When my husband I got married, a long time ago, the first year was spent trying to get each other to stop playing “radar”, as we came to call it. Radar was our code word for being able to read each others’ minds and needs. Learning that we didn’t have it (radar) was a great help in our communication for the last 27 years. You just gotta talk!
Evilmonkey@54:
Loved your Homework and testing analogy! Indeed, they are being forged in their own private crucibles. **twitching for ToM**
EvilMonkey@54
Re: straightforward Aes Sedai killed by Halima
Anaiya
JanDSedai @55:
Actually, Morgase has sworn no oaths to Faile or Perrin either. She agreed to enter Faile’s service as a domestic while they travelled together, but that is a far cry from swearing fealty. She could have left service any time she wanted, and now that her secret has been revealed I’m certain she is no longer in service.
Tek @57:
The cover appears to be highly inaccurate to me (why am I surprised?). I take Mat to be the young man in the middle holding the Ashandarei. If that is so, then one of the other two don’t match at all. I take it Thom is the old man on the left, but if that is the case then who is the youngish man drawing on the wall? Certainly not Noal, and it can’t be Olver who should be a little boy. If the old man is Noal, then Thom is the youngish man drawing on the wall? And if Mat is the one in pink drawing on the wall, who is the young man in the middle holding the Ashandarei? Doesn’t make sense. Why TOR keeps allowing Darryl Sweet to draw covers that have only a passing resemblance to actual people and scenes in the book remains a mystery to me. Don’t they care at all about the fans’ feelings on the matter?
edit for the double post
Alisonwonderland – FWIW, RJ reportedly enjoyed the Sweet cover art, and in any case he (DKS) has a contract for the remaining books. As for Harriet not caring about the fans’ feelings, that’s demonstrably untrue. So the remaining question is… why do the covers so rarely bear much resemblance to the actual character descriptions or scenes? I’ve got a theory… (it could be bunnies)
[Gah! forkroot, was it you that got me started on that again? I can’t even think “I’ve got a theory” without that tag coming right in behind it. GAH!!]
[But it’s still funny.]
Anyway, my theory is that he does the exaggerated characteristics and the things that don’t match on purpose. We all visualize things differently, so one person’s idea of “That looks just like Mat!” makes another person go “What description was he reading?!?” As evidence, go look at the discussions of the ebook covers (which I know you have). People are generally being pretty nice, and stating whatever objections they have very graciously, but underneath there is still a certain amount of “It’s a great picture, but that’s not really what _____ looks like” from at least a few people on every picture. So my take on it is that while every cover roughly represents a scene in the book, additional elements are brought in to evoke other aspects of the book; in addition, the people are drawn to bring out certain characteristics which are particularly important to the theme being portrayed. How successful it is depends on the individual reader/viewer, but that’s what I get.
Okay, to be perfectly honest, I really hope it’s something like this, because cover art (and blurbs) in general really bug me. I can’t begin to count the number of books where I’ve looked at the art and wondered if the artist had been given any description of the character, or read the blurb and wondered if the person who wrote it had even opened the book. *sigh* One of the great mysteries of publishing. And once again I find myself trying to see the other side of the coin. Good thing I can wear grey well.
Alisonwonderland@60
I believe that Tor does care about the fans’ feelings, and that that is at the heart of the awesome art showcased for the ebooks.
As for Darrell K Sweet… he has an impressive résumé of cover art: http://ofearna.us/art/sweet.html. So way back when the WoT was getting started, it probably seemed like a good idea to have someone already established tackle the artwork. Yes, I wish someone had been a bit more constructively critical of his work… maybe required a pop quiz to be sure that he actually understood what was going on, but it is what it is.
I would also imagine that a contract may be involved, which would explain the ongoing relationship. (Although, I seem to remember reading somewhere that RJ signed off on all the covers, so… I don’t know.)
I will do what I have done with every book when I have it in hand. I will study the artwork, chuckle over the inconsistencies and then remove the cover.
EDIT: *points up* Also, what Wetlandernw said! :D
EvilMonkey – Is Ishamael/Moridin Rands professor?
I was always surprised with the way Perrin wants to talk with people and put them at ease, that he didn’t talk with the wolves more – it realy is like he is using them as a tool. (I know, I know – he doesn’t want to lose his humanity.) Then Elyas comes along and asks Perrin what he thinks about what the wolves are thinking and I think he realizes what a doof he has been – but of course he doen’t fix it, yet…
Gaul – definite clan chief material. What would become of Bain and Chiad if he becomes a clan chief? Would they give up the spear and both become Roof Mistresses? Of cousre it is likely the Aiel will become something different then they are now after TG.
I for one was happy to see Elyas back. Perrin realy needed a friend – and one who could help him understand his wife to boot!(And to help some us readers as well;)
I love how we get to read how Perrin dances Alliandre to fealty – very well writen. Poor Alliandre, gets to hang out with Faile and get kidnapped now.
Mat and his pink pants – I am certain he would have burned those as quick as he could, he wouldn’t still have them. Now on the other hand, a little lace is good;)
tempest™
Welnadernw@62
Nope innocent of this. Maybe jamesedjones?
Changing the subject … I finally got around to a TGS re-read as part of a lazy four-day weekend at the beach ::ducks the jealous comments::
I tend to be a bit more careful on the re-reads since I’m not turning each page in anticipation. I have to say that my already high opinion of the job that BWS did went up even another notch. I noticed a lot of “little stuff” that he did right. Sorry … should have thought to write down an example, but I didn’t.
Maybe it’s “20-20 hindsight” but it seems like Sanderson was not only the right choice but possibly the only choice to finish the series. Thanks Harriet (and Brandon)!
Aliceinwonderland@60 & Wetlander@62:
I understand Sweet has a contract but does Tor have any input? Hopefully, they will correct a few things. Faces being different for everyone I totally understand, but those three characters, other than Thom, are unrecognizable. Mat needs a HAT!! To go with the ashandari and who is that guy writing on the Tower?
Oh, for plain type face only, serious adult looking dust jackets!! That way everyone could keep their own fantasies about how people looked, and we wouldn’t have to feel like we were toting around our teenager’s books.
Wind@64: I think he DID burn all his pink clothes before he left!
**Grumble Grumble**
http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Towers_of_Midnight_%28book%29
Brandon sanderson has done an exceptional work on TGS, rereading it for 4 times, has convinced me of it.
Totally agree with you Forkroot!!
and for the record:
I HATE FAILE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
good night people.
sleep well and wake.
may you all rise to the call of the Horn.
forkroot @65
Nope innocent of this. Maybe jamesedjones?
Or maybe midgets?
I will admit that there are only four Sweet WoT covers that I have no gripes with, but I’m not in the habit of expecting SF/F covers to be realistic to the story, and feel it only proper to withhold judgement on the ToM cover until: 1) It’s actually released, and 2) We find whether it’s even remotely faithful to the scene as written.
For all we know, the scene involves some reason why Mat’s hat isn’t on his head. That does happen now and then. But the triangle is obviously upside down, since it’s meant to represent a foxhead, and we know from the description of the triangle-marked redstone doorway ter’angreal that they are point-down. That characters don’t match descriptions, or an individual’s interpretation of a description, is not unexpected. I’ve seen no art of Rand that really looks as I see him in my head (though the ebook cover with Rand in the rigging of The White Spray is quite close).
RE: Faile/Perrin/Berelain
Perrin is caught by a plethora of things which he never wanted. Wolfbrotherhood; proximity to the Dragon Reborn; romance with a Saldaean “leopard”; stalking by a psycho Mayener hussy; leadership over people whom he sees as hometown elders and peers, as well as Aes Sedai, Aiel, Asha’man channelers and others. There’s one or five other things that could come under this heading. And he has done what he believed needed to be done at every step, never compromising his principles at any point. I don’t fault him for any of the situations he’s stuck with.
Faile, on the other hand, is responsible for many of the situations in which she finds herself. Hard-headed, overbearing, and single-minded. But she’s mostly sincere, and she also makes her decisions based on what she believes is right.
Berelain has a number of positive traits, several outstanding attributes (and those are among her biggest problems), but she mostly does what she does with selfish intentions, and she isn’t interested in how much trouble she causes for others.
I must admit to not having time as yet to catch up on the comments, but I do want to say something about Berelain before I have to plunge back into my real life catch-up post finals.
The one thing that always irks me is that I don’t understand Berelain’s motivation. She pretty much abandoned her country, taking her winged guards with her. Who’s minding the store all this time? I know she made an Ogier’s oath regarding Faile, but I still believe there must be something more driving her to stick like a chigger to Perrin.
I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that in Tear, Berelain had gone into the ter’angreal and asked the Finns how to save Mayene. Their answer being: stay very close to one of three ta’veren. She got rejected by Rand, and discounted Mat as being too much like herself. That leaves only Perrin.
I know, it’s another looney theory, but that ter’angreal had been in Mayene for many years, and she’d certainly know about it.
Violetdancer@70:
Not an unreasonable Looney Theory. I think we would all feel better about her, if it comes out that the snakes did tell her to stick by one of the 3 Ta’verens.
violetdancer @70 – Maybe, if we’re lucky, we’ll find out that they said something that made her think it was necessary not only to stick close to one, but to seduce one of them. Better yet, they said something that made her think it was one of those three, but will turn out to have meant Galad. :)
Freelancer @69 – You did it again, unsurprisingly. I agree totally with your assessment of the three characters, and the comment on the covers was spot on. It’s funny how even though we don’t know what will take place for sure, we have such clearly defined expectations based on what we’ve read. We expect to see Mat wearing his hat when he goes to the TofG. We expect that it will be Thom, Mat and Noal going. As you say, though, there may be some reason integral to the plot that Mat isn’t wearing the hat, and we might be completely wrong about Noal being the third party. Maybe it’s Gawyn. ;) At least, I don’t think it’s feasible for Olver to have that much of a growth spurt in a month or two.
At the risk of having John Cleese pop up and say “And now for something completely different.”
A buddy of mine and I were just discussing this chapter and we had a thought which I simply had to share.
COPS: Saldean Edition.
“Nice boys nice boys, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when they come for you.”
Radio voice: We’ve got a 216 in progress, all available units please respond.
Veteran cop: Oh God, not one of those. This is car 48 responding, en route.
Rookie: A 216? Which one is that again?
Vet: That’s when a woman kicks her husband between the uprights and he doesn’t punch her hard enough to knock her off her feet.
Rookie: What? How could someone do that?
Vet: I don’t know. There are some sick people out there. You take the back, I want to make sure we get this guy if he tries to run.
-Beren
65 forkroot
MWAH HA HA HA HA! Even when I’m not commenting, I’m still pulling the… wait… hang on… damn knots.
…um, does anyone have any scissors?
@64 Windrose
Ishy/Din is his Homeroom teacher
Shadowkiller
violetdancer-
In tSR we learn that Rand has the Tairen High Lord work out a very agreeable Treaty with Mayene:
(from Hard Heads):
(from chapter 9 Decisions – tSR)
We find out Berelain is going back to Mayene in chapter 14 of tSR – Customs of Mayene. Then in tFoH, Rand gets a letter from her saying she is on her way to Cairhien with a small army – the 900 soldiers. He puts her in place as regent after she arrives. This could have been Ta’averen work, Rand had to leave and he needed to leave someone in place who could run Cairhien but have no interest in becoming a ruler of what he wanted to give to Elayne. She did leave someone in her place to take care of the affairs of Mayene before she left again to Cairhien.
Also, I think we need to consider how RJ liked to tie things together. I am positive that there is a reason the First of Mayene is Berelain sur Paendrag – while we have the Seanchen coming back who hold the Paendrag name so high – as in it shows up in Tuons name – Tuon Athaem Kore Paendrag.
tempest™
-dies a little at cover art-
…the ashanderei is…is…IT’S GOLD. And the character holding it [I am assuming this is Mat?] looks an awful lot like previous-covers-Rand. ;___; I’m not expecting mind-blowing covers, given the last 20 YEARS of cover work for this series, but askdnskjd. Is it too much to ask that the 20 year old protagonist look 20, and not 45? Or that the weapon he’s had for 8 books, and been described multiple times in each book [save for the one in which he makes no appearance], be even the slightest bit accurate in color alone?
Don’t get me wrong; Mr. Sweet does a far better job than I could do, but.
Sigh. I guess I’ll just have to wait and hope.
@wetlander: See, when I hear “I’ve got a Theory”, my immediate addendum is “That it’s a demon. A DANCING demon.” But Anya’s break sounds better. Fear the bunnies. [Annnnd, now I’m imagining giant flaming Eyes of Sauron with leprechaun shoes doing an Irish jig. Yay brain.]
Sooo… Buffy reference FTW!
Or are we to assume that everyone got the reference? Last time I did that, (Princess Bride), some people on this forum had not even seen it! Shouldn’t it be a prerequisite? As well as “Buffy: The Musical”? But then I missed a comment from “Big Trouble In Little China”… and I *love* Kurt Russell!
Just to get some perspective on the timing of events of this chapter I pulled some dates from the Wheel of Time Timeline. Book 6 ends with Dumai Wells, which occurs on Jan. 1, 1000. Then High Chasaline occurs on Jan 2, which is the start of Book 7. Perrin is “banished” on Jan. 6, and starts looking for the Prophet. Bowl of the Winds is activated on Jan. 9, and Rand defeats Sammael on Jan. 11. In Book 8, it is Jan. 16 when this chapter occurs. So Perrin & co. were looking for the Prophet for one week (ten days), before Alliandre comes to his camp. So we are just over a week and a half removed from Dumai Wells!
Just gotta say, Perrin’s attitude and feelings of guilt about having got the wolves killed in Dumai Wells always annoyed me.
He had just told them that Rand had been taken prisoner which is why the wolves came. Rand has a place in the wolves’ mythos as well and the wolves understand something that very few people in Randland actually get at a gut level which is that RAND IS THEIR ONLY CHANCE! (sorry for shouting I feel frustrated with how afraid people are of Rand)
So when Perrin merely informs the wolves that Rand is in danger, the wolves say only one thing, ‘we come’ not because Perrin asked them to but because the wolves as a race know that Rand has to survive and are willing to make any sacrifice necessary to make that happen. All the guilt Perrin feels about this actually takes away from the wolves’ sacrifice and makes it appear as if he thinks of the wolves as animals he can command and not as thinking beings that are free to make their own decisions.
I’m surprised how many people don’t seem to realize the reason why Berelain is still around Perrin is because she will be his second WIFE. The extent of the general ignorance of this is so high and so wide spread that I’ve even begun questioning my own reading & understanding of the books and these BIG arrows of Fire & Neon in the sky pointing to this future development. The most obvious source for my assertion is Min of course. She has commented several times that in addition to a “falcon” , there will be a “hawk” attached to Perrin. The falcon is clearly Faile, and the Hawk is Berelain. That’s her sigil or Mayene’s. But there are other signs which are so patent & egregious that beg the question why few people seem not to have caught the hints already.
To follow up on this, and to meet the quota for controversial topics this week, I would like to comment on the fact that both Rand & Perrin will end up with more than one wife. I believe Polygamy in the Western world has ( should have ) a good chance at becoming an option in law & society. You see, I agree ( grudgingly & not a 100%) that Polygamy is an institution PRONE ( notice the emphasis on prone, it doesn’t mean it ALWAYS is )to being rife with abuse, or at least it has seemed so in the past. However, I believe this has been in fact due only to the ground where polygamy has so far been allowed to grow up in, namely, religion. It’s my sincere belief that once removed from this malnourished, almost infertile ground, and transplanted to secularism, polygamy will be seen as an attractive option with many advantages.
In the past, polygamy has not really taken root because as it was practiced it often led to oppression of the women involved. For the sake of clarity, I will say now for the record that I am AGAINST the oppression / abuse of women to enter polymay against their will. This is NOT what I’m advocating here. What I’m trying to show is that Polygamy CAN be liberating, rewarding & satisfying to women. Some of the advantages include, but are not reststricted to, help with the house chores, close camaraderie among the other wives, help with child care / feeding; and if we’re talking about the time before children ( or perhaps even AFTER, depending on the particular arrangement ) it would mean MORE free time for the women, it might mean, they wouldn’t have to sacrifice their careers if that’s the path they decided to pursue at the moment. In other words, the system I’m putting forward resembles A LOT the one described in Randland. The women choose to enter Polygamy, the man while he may decline such an offer, it’s up to the women to freely take the initiative.
As I see it, one of polygamy’s most major obstacles to clear is relgion. To my mind, the link between this form of marriage and religin has to be broken first. If you can stop ( go ahead & try to imagine it now ) associating the idea of polygamy to either the oppressive Muslim practice or the oppressive Mormon practice, if instead you can picture as a MODERN life choice, as a viable alternative to marriage then you might see it has huge benefits to offer. It has been noticed & commented before in a few books already that we actually have a kind of ‘polygamy’ already in place in the world….it’s often called “serial polygamy”. “What ???!!” You might say ? You have never heard of it before ? Yes, you have. This ‘serial polygamy’ is often introduced by divorce. When men divorce their wives, and they remarry a second, third, fourth. etc time, they’re having multiple wives in effect; the big difference is that it’s being done sequentially or ‘serially”. This is NOT the kind of polygamy I’m advocating for the simple fact that it DESTROYS homes & families.
There is a caveat though. Polygamy as what I’m envisioning is NOT for everyone. It’s actually for a very select few. For men, it will demand more than average resources… AND understanding & caring toward his wives. As for the women, it will mean understanding, patience, and unselfishness. YOu see, perhaps the reason polygamy has not become either more commonplace or even deemed to be possible might be the exact same reasons why marriages in monogamy often fail : the participants are not mature enough or unselfish enough for marriage. When self-gratification or self-satisfaction rule the mentality ( i.e. I’m not happy in this marriage, I’m not getting what I want from this marriage, I’m not satisfied with my partner, I’m …well, you get the point) of the couple then it’s no wonder divorce is rampant. Polygamy is NOT easier , it’s exponentially harder than monogamy.
Can you vague that up a little or can you serve some more vague with that vague. Some of my favorite lines.
The one thing that always irks me is that I don’t understand Berelain’s motivation. She pretty much abandoned her country, taking her winged guards with her.
ACoS ch. 18
I’m surprised how many people don’t seem to realize the reason why Berelain is still around Perrin is because she will be his second WIFE. The extent of the general ignorance of this is so high and so wide spread that I’ve even begun questioning my own reading & understanding of the books and these BIG arrows of Fire & Neon in the sky pointing to this future development. The most obvious source for my assertion is Min of course. She has commented several times that in addition to a “falcon” , there will be a “hawk” attached to Perrin. The falcon is clearly Faile, and the Hawk is Berelain. That’s her sigil or Mayene’s. But there are other signs which are so patent & egregious that beg the question why few people seem not to have caught the hints already.
Re 80
Yes but did it say that that Falie will still be alive when Perrin gets his Hawk?
@80: Der_Wikinger:
What the bloody hell are you goin’ on about? Min’s viewing concerning Berelain indicates that she will fall head over heels for a man in white. “A man in white” is unlikely to refer to Perrin, as we’ve never seen him wear white and white has never been attributed to him. Nor is it likely that Berelain will fall head over heels in love with Perrin any time soon, as she mainly has a fascination with him because of Faile. If she hasn’t fallen in love with him already, why would she suddenly fall in love with him?
Also, the viewing Min has concerning the falcon, hawk, and Perrin is: “A falcon and a hawk, perching on your shoulders.” That does not indicate any sentiments either the falcon (Faile) or the hawk (Berelain) will hold towards Perrin, merely that they will both be tied to him. And that’s satisfied very neatly with Berelain following him around everywhere.
Berelain will not marry Perrin. He is not interested in her. He has no reason to marry her. Faile would never allow it and Perrin would never want it. The idea of them marrying is completely contrary to Berelain, Perrin, and Faile’s characters and has no basis in the story itself. Please rid yourself of that idea.
It is much more likely that the “man in white” that Berelain will fall head over heels in love with is Galad (who is a Whitecloak, and thus satisfies the “man in white” requirement).
Faile then gently kicks Perrin out of the tent
we hope it was done gently; but Faile being a Saldaean leopard … why couldn’t she have been a South African meercat? Or a North Indian mongoose?
Roxinos @84 – Exactly what I was thinking. Well said, and my thanks for removing the temptation to ruin my Sunday morning with frustration and keyboard abuse! :)
So am I the only one who read this and thought, ‘so that’s where Elayne gets it from?’ Or maybe RJ just had a fascination with making his rulers foul-mouthed (or at least as bloody foul-mouthed as people flaming well get in the WOT).
I just wanted to put this out there – not something I have ever believed, but something interesting none the less. Don’t Randlanders usually wear white when mourning? If Faile died, Perrin would wear white to the funeral. I don’t know why Berelain would suddenly fall in love with him, and like I said I don’t really purport this. However I just wanted to see if anyone had thoughts along this line:)
tempest™
Subwoofer@52
Agree. Sam Elliot since the first time I thought of a cast list.
2 days until a new post. Possible topic for comments until then
The above comment on dates/timelines made me realize that these events occured around my birthday. Looking at the WOT timline, what events happened on the day you were born?
1/15-998 & 999: Not onscreen.
1000: Perrin saves Morgase.
Lily of the Valley @77
I don’t know. To my knowledge that Ashandarei has never looked the same in any two covers it has been depicted in. Why should now be different?
lostinshadow @79
Well, the wolves’ reaction itself in the aftermath was pretty mixed. Some were satisfied that Shadowkiller had been captured. Some that had not come had made comments about how so many wolves were lost.
thewindrose @88
IIRC this was one of the really common theories for how a Berelain/Perrin match would come about. The flaw in this is that Faile’s death without heirs will break Perrin’s connection to the Broken Crown. Also, she’s already made it past the Plot Thread That Won’t Die relatively intact. Most of the proponents for this theory had her dieing in captivity. She could still die. But by this point, Galad has already joined up with Perrin’s party.
This brings me to one of my vague, slightly outlandish theories. What if Berelain had gone through the ter’angreal in Tear, and had been advised she will attach herself to the Dragon Reborn and his kin? This quickly explains why she was trying to seduce Rand, and then moved on to Perrin. It also makes for some plot tension whens she falls for Galad but has reservations because she doesn’t know his blood relationship to Rand, only to be resolved when everybody finds out he is after all related to Rand.
On the ToM cover, I suspect that the man on the right, drawing the sign on the tower is meant to be Thom – if you look closely, he’s wearing a patchwork cloak, albeit in green and purple, rather than multi-coloured. He seems to have had a dye-job since we last saw him, though. Maybe they have good barber shops in Caemlyn?
The man in the middle certainly looks like he’s supposed to be Mat, despite having stolen Perrin’s headband from TDR and what seems to be a Robin Hood outfit. The bloke in the blue coat could be Noal, but I suspect that it might be meant to be Juilin, given that he’s carrying a wooden staff, similar to what he’s supposed to carry (although I seem to remember that it was actually bamboo). He seems the have missed his hair appointment, though…
@84 roxinos and @88 thewindrose
Min’s comments make it fairly obvious that the nature of the link between both the falcon & the hawk to Perrin is of a romantic nature. First, you have to notice that the hawk is on THE SAME FOOTING ( position ) as the falcon. One is perched on Perrin’s left shoulder, the other on the right. The falcon is Faile, and she’s married to Perrin. It stands to reason the hawk will be as well. Second, Min has explicitly told us half-jokingly that ‘she would be surprised if Faile doesn’t kill Perrin when the hawk appears”. This was said in LoC, I believe. She also said a few lines later, I think, that “Perrin is completely besotted with Faile, yet much good it will do for him when the hawk appears”. Again, this shows clearly a romantic rivalry, which is EXACTLY what we have in Perrin’s situation.
To be honest, I figured this out pretty early on, but I didn’t give it too much weight becos knowing Jordan and his red herrings and Min’s vague viewings, it could be interpreted in a number of ways. As you said, Berelain is supposed to fall head over heels in a man in white, but who is to say that won’t be Perrin ??? Just because we haven’t seen Perrin associated with that color yet, doesn’t mean it’s not in store for him. But as important as Min’s viewing is, what really clinched it for me are the other clues scattered through the books. I mean the landscape is littered with them ! I’m referring to passages like the one we just reread when Faile is admitting to herself that given other circumstances she would admire or even like Berelain because of her competency. Or passages, where Perrin sees a falcon and a hawk just before Faile is kidnapped. He seems to have lost sight of the Falcon in the sky , but he can still see the hawk ( Berelain )and she’s the one who returns to him, reporting the kidnapping. Or the fact that Berelain has almost the identical last name as Arthur Hawking Paendrag who is associated with a Hawk. Or when Berelain undergoes that miraculous transformation after Faile’s kidnapping and offers a truce to Perrin. Perrin is the first one to notice that Berelain’s wishes for Faile’s safe return and well-being are REALLY HEART FELT and SINCERE ( we know this because Perrin’s Wolf Noseatron tells him so for true ). Or the passage when Perrin punishes himself for giving Berelain respect or praise for something she did or said durning the kidnapping plot. Or …any other of the dozen or so passages I won’t bother mentioning that are spread throughout the last few books.
To the comments that Perrin or Faile ‘hate’ Berelain and that it could never happen in a million years.
“Berelain will not marry Perrin. He is not interested in her. He has no reason to marry her. Faile would never allow it and Perrin would never want it. The idea of them marrying is completely contrary to Berelain, Perrin, and Faile’s characters and has no basis in the story itself.”
Well, many romantic relationships in Wot or Randland seem to start in an antagonistic vein. Witness Rand and Aviendha. Witness Mat & Tuon. Witness Byrne and Siuan. Witness Bayle Domon & Egeanin. Witness …oh for crying out loud. Witness anyone.
That they ‘hate’ each other is not really an argument against somebody falling in love in Randland, it seems a prerequisite they will do so.
I will give more weight to the argument that Berelain is not truly in love with Perrin ( something by the way, is not longer true. I believe she fell in love around the time Faile was kidnapped ), that she’s merely toying with him or taunting Faile. That to me, has better support…but not enough. It’s true it started as a bet or silly game for Berelain. That’s undeniable. She only had a passing crush on him, and just was amusing herself being a nuissance to both Perrin & Faile. But that changed shortly before or after Faile’s kidnapping. She is the hawk on Perrin’s shoulder. I don’t know if Faile will die before Perrin marries Berelain ( I’m almost certain that the answer is ‘no’ )….Hmmmm…This reminds me of the time when a lot of fans ( most really ) were discussing who will end up or marry with Rand. Elayne, Aviendha or Min. I couldn’t believe they were blind to the obvious conclusion…ALL THREE WILL. Even after Min’s viewing of 3 women being linked and falling in love with Rand; even after the Aiel tradition of sister wives was introduced in the books, even after Elayne & Aviendah adopted each other , there were still people who didn’t see it coming @_@…Unbelievable.
Lostinshadow@79: People have good reason to be scared of Rand. It’s been foretold he’ll bring a second Breaking after all. “Pain and division come to the whole world, and this man stands at the heart of it.”
So you can’t expect people to be happy he’s here, exactly. That said, the Wise One’s attitude of “ok, so we’ll help him win, and we’ll try to preserve everything we can” or the wolves’ acceptance of necessary losses is a hell of a lot better than most people seem capable of.
Der_Wikinger@93: You’re fully entitled to your opinion but I doubt going on and on about how ‘unbelievable’ it is someone might disagree with you is likely to convince anyone. Your theory is possible, but I’d be more convinced if Perrin himself had shown any interest in Berelain. Despite what the terrible two appear to think, the man’s feelings and opinion do matter in this sort of situation.
Min has another reading of Perrin bf the banishment. She still sees the Falcon and Hawk perched on his shoulder but only the Falcon has the leash. I don’t know, I always took it to mean Berry is gonna be forever a third wheel. She is not going to have wifey status with Perrin, just not happening. Furthermore, Perrin simply is not the type and doesn’t have the compatible women to make the second wife theory work. Look, first, Perrin can barely handle his own wife much less adding another. Second, Rand’s Tri-brides works because the women love each other as much as they do Rand (only in a different way, so I guess no girl on girl orgies) Well, at least Elaine loves both Avi and Min like sisters. For accuracy’s sake, Avi and Min are still feeling each other out but were finding that they were having a “mirror effect”, saying the same things at the same time. It’s a story, of course Avi and Min will come to love each other like they love Rand only different. Faile and Berry on the other hand? The closest those two are going to get affection-wise is mutual respect. Even though Perrin does consider her to be attractive (she evokes a hate response from women all over Randland because every man withing 50 miles of her considers her mouth-droolingly attractive) but the only way he can get 2 wives out the deal considering his personality is the way Rand got em. The girls have to present a united front, hold his ass down and make him take it and like it. The Hawk and the Falcon can be a united front on most anything (see how they closed ranks against Alliandre with no outward signs of communication) but when it comes to Perrin, they just cannot get right. And since Perrin is not the type that can seduce more than one woman, have em find out about each other and still continue to give him the time of day then the 2 birds cannot be team mates in the bedroom but they can at least reside in the same city. I choose Atlanta (Hawks and Falcons? basketball and football? get it? HA HA AHHA HA!).
Shadowkiller
Der_Wikinger@A couple (no pun intended)
Interesting theory. I don’t buy into it – and I hope you won’t be terribly disappointed if it doesn’t pan out – but it is still an interesting theory. (I’m actually considering it a little more after windrose’s insight into the color white and its association with mourning.)
Serial polygamy… hmmm… Okay. My ex-husband has now been married four times. I was the first and, until his current wife, the one who held the endurance record. (No. 4 has outlasted me by a year now. I really need to send her a card or something.) For a good and practical reason, I worked to establish and maintain a good relationship with each of my “wives-in-law”. That reason was my son. These women were going to be important to him so we were going to be, at the very least, civil to one another. As it turned out, we were actually able to be friends. (I won’t go into the story of what happened when my ex-mother-in-law died. It’s the kind of “American Gothic” thing that can only happen in small town Southern America. Which is to say it was interesting – even downright funny at times – but probably wouldn’t translate well. You really had to be there.) Oh, and the fact that I was able to get along with his wives (and the only one able to be friends with all of them) purely drove my ex up the wall. Party bonus. *weg*
So I can – sort of – follow your serial polygamy train of thought. Sort of.
But as for Perrin/Faile/Berelain… You make comparison to Rand and Avi/Min/Elayne; with your indulgence, I’ll address that first. Surely you will acknowledge that there is a significance to that relationship that transcends love and romance. Beyond love, Rand needs Aviendha to help tie the Aiel to him. Remember, the Wise Ones refer to Aviendha as a “binding cord” (COT, “What the Wise Ones Know”). He needs Min for her abilities as an Oracle. He needs Elayne for her connections to the Royal House of Andor (adding to his own, unknown as they are by the general public) and her connections to the White Tower. Also, as a substitute for Ilyena; she is the “second chance” owed Lews Therin. And he loves them all three. “And not one a whisker more or less than the other two.” WH, “A Lily in Winter”.
There is no reason that transcends love where Perrin and Faile and Berelain are concerned. There is a prophecy about the “Broken Crown”, which is strongly believed to be the Crown of Saldaea; clearly, Faile is the key to the Saldaean throne. (Although, I don’t discount the idea that it refers to the long dead crown of Manetheren. Or maybe both. I mean, who knows what the geo-political landscape is going to look like post-Tarmon Gai’don.) How will the First of Mayene help with that prophecy? She can’t. Is there another reason that is crucial to the success of the Light at TG that Berelain can help with? Nothing comes to mind. And Perrin doesn’t love Berelain. The most that can be said, post Faile’s kidnapping, is that he learned to appreciate her to a degree. In fact, the only mention of Berelain after Faile’s rescue is in Perrin’s confusion over Faile’s reaction to the rumor that Perrin was unfaithful and Perrin’s assertion that he was not. To me, that doesn’t sound like a man who might be considering his options…
You also cite Min’s viewing about the “man in white” and the possibility that it could be Perrin. You also state that you believe that Berelain fell in love with Perrin when Faile was kidnapped. It can’t be both. If she has fallen in love with Perrin before he is “the man in white”… well, you see the timing problem there. So, either Berelain hasn’t fallen in love with Perrin, and won’t until he puts on white (windrose’s mourning?) or she has fallen in love with him but he isn’t the one and when the one shows up, her feelings about Perrin will change.
You cited other examples of relationships that started out as adversarial but changed to love. Yes, you’re right. There are a boatload of ’em. It’s a favorite theme in literature, television, movies, you name it. And it’s been done to death in WoT. So much so that Perrin and Berelain would be just too much. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, you know?
But I’ll see your “hate you now, love you later” idea and raise you a classic “hello, Mr. Right!” From Tolkien, no less. The Aragorn/Arwen/Eowyn triangle. From the books and not the movies, thank you. Eowyn had it bad for Aragorn. Aragorn was completely faithful to Arwen. After Sauron was defeated and everyone else was ecstatically happy, Eowyn continued to languish in the Houses of Healing. It was obvious to everyone (and finally to Eowyn) that Aragorn did not return her feelings. Then she meets her “man in white”, Faramir, and her feelings for Aragorn change. She marries Faramir and lives happily ever after. (I really hated that the movie downplayed this development. In the book, Aragorn tells her, “It heals my heart to see thee now in bliss.” Such a beautiful line that could have completely resolved that part of the story… ah, well. In the movie, basically we get a shot of Eowyn and Faramir looking at each other, and that’s it.)
RJ has certainly thrown out his share of red herrings. Over the years, the WoT faithful have devoted so much time writing about the Mazrim Taim/Demandred and Olver-as-Gaidal-Cain theories (just to name the most popular) that the word count generated probably equals one of the books. He has twisted us all up so much that I think we go looking for smelly little fishes everywhere. It’s that capacity for speculation that is part and parcel of what makes this series so much addictive fun.
That said, I believe that Berelain will end up with Galad. The most beautiful woman in Randland (reputedly) and the most beautiful man. The “naughty” girl and the man who will only do right. The (possible) eventual king of Cairhien and the woman who served as its de facto steward. I’m sorry, but that match-up is just too delicious not to happen!
But I give you props for thinking outside the box, and if you’re right, you may very well be the only person in fandom who can claim it! :D
I’m starting to understand the spam filter thing. Someone is, apparently, reviewing them. A while later, and it leads to double posts.
Der_Wikinger@@@@@93 – pretty much agreed with HARai @@@@@ 95 and Shadowkiller @@@@@ 96 and Roxinos @@@@@ 84.
But I’m Wall o’ Text guy, so…
In the first place, most of your original post @@@@@ 80 is…um…I’m gonna go with undiplomatic, rather than the host of other adjectives that spring to mind. Yes. Starting off stating your surprise at our general ignorance of the blindingly obvious truth that Perrin will marry Berelain is, well, undiplomatic.
And you really don’t support the statement. You mention the viewing that doesn’t necessarily mean what you say (more on that later), and then you move on. We don’t mean to be oblivious, blind, and ignorant, of course – but rather than point out instances in the book to support your view (and remedy our collective ignorance), you write a couple of paragraphs defending polygamy.
Well, fine…but what any of us thinks about the morality/practicality/etc. of polygamy is irrelevant to a discussion of whether or not Perrin, Faile, and Berelain will end up in such a relationship.
Which they won’t. It’s a looney theory. Sorry. Looney theories aren’t all bad, I’ve some myself, but they’re certainly not blindingly obvious. Min’s viewing of the falcon and the hawk doesn’t indicate the nature of the relationship, or that the relationship between wolf and falcon will be the same as that between wolf and hawk. Egwene’s Dream in TDR is more instructive – in that there is conflict, and the hawk is trying to leash/bridle Perrin. A non-cynical view of Perrin & Faile’s marriage would indicate that the falcon didn’t have to leash Perrin, b/c they fell in love. The hawk, otoh, is trying (the dream doesn’t indicate success, by the way) to leash him. To control him, in other words. Which Perrin doesn’t like any more than Rand likes people trying to leash him.
The to-me-and-many-others obvious interp is that Perrin is linked to both Faile and Berelain, with Berelain trying to control Perrin and Perrin trying to avoid it.
Which is pretty much the situation as it stands.
Oh, and you said this @@@@@ 80 : “The extent of the general ignorance of this is so high and so wide spread that I’ve even begun questioning my own reading & understanding of the books”. Good. Keep questioning.
What?
lostinshadow@79:
Just to feed your annoyance at Perrin….in The Shadow Rising, Perrin and his Merry Men have been holed up at the Aybara farm, foraging for trollocs to kill and mourning. Gaul spots a band of trollocs coming towards them, so Perrin sets a trap in the Waterwood. Somehow the trollocs get behind him and although the TR men do prevail, men are killed.
…the rest, including himself, were a ragbag remnant, nothing like the band he had led here, so confident and full of his own pride…..Twenty-seven Two Rivers folk he had killed with his stupidity. Twenty-seven.
Perrin flagellates himself as if he killed the men. Of course he is the leader and it is good that he takes responsibility for his troops, but this is War, and death happens. It’s the way he blames himself, not considering the double cross by the trollocs and the certain knowledge that at least some death and injury will occur. He goes on about how incompetent he is….he is young, but he is not incompetent. Argh.
Re: Berelain: I’ve never really hated her….she is so different with Rand, helping him in Carhein and helping with Alliandre, etc. I have big problems with the whole “I’m going to get you, nenurnenur, Faile.” story line. Just childish beyond belief. But I sense no real “affection” for Perrin at all. He’s just a game piece. I sincerely hope she falls flat on her face for Galad and starts drooling all over herself, for a change. I kind of hope the doorway ter’angreal theory pans out….she marries Galad and is connected to the DR. It would explain her actions a little more.
Amalisa – You are correct; per the CoT Prologue, the Broken Crown is Saldaean; Davram Bashere presented it to Tenobia when she took the throne. More correctly, I suppose, we know that it’s held by the Saldaean ruler; it’s possible that it belongs to a different country but is “held in trust” by Saldaea. In any case, the only national association we’ve been given for the Broken Crown is Saldaea.
chaplainchris @99 – Yup. Well said. I’ll admit I didn’t read the whole polygamy ramble; IMO it’s a stupid idea and I’m not going to waste my time on reading arguments for it or making arguments against it. Aside from this really not being the place for it. “Good. Keep questioning.” YEEESSSSSS!!!!!
@100 Tektonika – Perrin’s emoness is now less annoying to me, since somebody posted the timeline. If it’s really, for Perrin, only been 15 days since Dumai’s Wells, then he’d be crazy not to still be shaken up and having a hard time dealing.
I never really have adjusted to the Timeline and the slow pace. The series has been going on forever; I, personally, have been reading since Spring of 1996; it’s hard allowing for the emotional reality of the characters that all this stuff has been happening really fast.
@101 Wetlander – thanx.
@98 Amalisa – you started writing after I’d already started (but before I finished) my previous post, and your post was excellent. Thanx.
@96 Evilmonkey
Yes, you’re right. Looking at Perrin’s character, one has to wonder if he has the intestinal fortitude to take on 2 wives while he’s still handling Faile. I take your point that this is not something he’s either considering at the moment or has crossed his mind…and yet. You mentioned Rand & Triumvirate. Good, because I was about to do the same. There we have a precedent and perhaps a good example of how it’s gonna come about. Faile & Berelain must be able to be in the same room at the same time first, and then come to openly like each other. I know it’s a long shot, but we’ve seen the seeds of that already, and they’ll sprout soon. It’s true, Rand was figuratively kind of dragged kicking & screaming into the bonding and his relationship with his 3 wives-to-be, and I suspect Perrin’s case will be the same. I know he ‘hates’ Berelain. I’ve been reading the books as well. But there will come a point where he finally sees how much he truly means to her, and how wrong ( or one-sided view of her if you like ) he was about her. There’s more to Berelain than meets the eye ( Sorry, Megatron made me say it >_ce. Min really has come out on her own lately ( in TGS ). She’s the Oracle ( Oracle ++ ? ) and has the philosophy chops to understand Fel Harid’s work enough to help Rand figure out what may be required to win Tarmon’ Gaidon. It’s too bad she didn’t have so much ( any ? ) input in the idea behind cleansing Saidin,,,but oh, well. Anyway, Yes, that set of relationships NEEDED to happen. They had to be; they were destined to be. But Rand is the MAIN character, so his relationships should be in the grand scale of things. Perrin’s marriage or relationship to Faile , while definately important for the broken crown of Saldea, and possibly the future royal line of Manetheren count as small potatoes against the grand scheme of things like Humankind’s survival, the fate of the world ( or even perhaps the fate of the other multiverses where the Dark One is imprisoned ). So, yes, Perrin’s relationship to Berelain might not set any records for importance in Wot, but then again, it doesn’t have to.
Ok, you got me there with the ‘man in white’ timing. I jumped the gun when I said that Berelain was already in love with Perrin, I admit. But you gotta admit too that Berelains feelings for Perrin have changed since the Stone too. It’s not longer a childish game to her, she’s playing for keeps now. I know she started chasing Perrin on a whim, and she likes to get a rise out of him & Faile, but she has come to understand Perrin a little more, and has come closer to loving him.
Berelain has the title of the most beautiful woman in Randland ? I thought it belonged to either Mierin/Lanfear or Halima ^^.
thewindrose – All I’ve found so far to connect white and mourning is that the Sea Folk women wear white stoles when they are in mourning, and Nynaeve once mentioning “funeral white.” FWIW…
Edit – the most common usages of “wearing white” in WoT are, of course, the Whitecloaks and the gai’shain. I think the chances of Perrin being taken gai’shain are fairly slim, and the chances of him becoming a Whitecloak even slimmer.
chaplainchris @102 – have you seen Steven Cooper’s Tellings of the Wheel: The Chronology of The Wheel of Time site? Bookmark it and look at it regularly – it’s fantastic, and it really does help make sense of things sometimes.
Holy handgrenades, Batman! How did I miss this new re-read post? o_O
Jan@78-Thanks for that perspective on the timing of events. I’ve looked at the timelines before, but it’s never really sunk in just what a short time frame these middle books took place in. Not to mention what all the characters go through in such a short amount of time!
lost@79- Excellent point about the wolves! Also, I’m right there with you regarding the frustration about people being afraid of Rand. I mean, on one hand I understand why people would be afraid of him, but on the other….what’s going to happen will happen. I think like the wO I guess. Help the guy along and save what you can!
I’ve got a theory it could be bunnies!
Bunnies arent just cute like everybody supposes,
They got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses,
And whats with all the carrots?
What do they need such good eyesight for anyway?
Bunnies, Bunnies, it must be bunnies!
…. Or maybe midgets?
Aha! I have found it! It was toryx who got me started back on CoS #18! Actually, Leigh started it back on CoS #14, but it was toryx and his “what do they need such good eyesight for anyway” that made me go back and actually watch that crazy business. Again. *sigh* Oh, well, it makes theoryland a place full of chuckles everywhere.
Tektonica – I didn’t take your comment as sarcasm. :) I just didn’t have anything to work with that night. Today, I’m realizing that I still may not have anything to say to provide insight for someone who dislikes Faile but wants some clues as to why she might perhaps be likable. (Or whatever.) To me, she’s a pretty straight-forward character, as portrayed through the whole series. I’m not saying I always understand what she’s trying to do at any given time, but she’s just not that complex. Still, here are a couple of tidbits that have surfaced in my musings.
One, Faile is dedicated to Perrin himself. True, she sometimes tries to make him something he doesn’t want to be, but it’s rarely about herself. I know some disagree with me, but I’m convinced it’s true. She’s one of the few people who see him for himself, not an adjunct of the Dragon Reborn or Mr. Goldeneyes. She wants him to be all he can be, and she’ll do whatever wierd conniving she can think of to make that happen. In this chapter, you see her keeping absolute control over her outward reactions, passing on vital information that will make him look stronger, slipping him the right words to say to accept fealty, then reinforcing the impressions he’s left on Alliandre. Sure, she enjoys it; she was raised to do that sort of thing, she’s good at it, and there’s real enjoyment in doing a worthwhile task well. Still, she complements Perrin perfectly here, and that’s what she really wants. (That’s like the complementary angle, the one that completes, not the “gee you look nice” sort of compliment.)
Two, Faile sees Perrin in ways he cannot see himself. She sees his honesty, his straightforwardness, his strength, his wisdom. He sees himself as a bumbling, slow-witted blacksmith; she sees him as an admirable man, strong and intelligent. Her only real frustrations with him are that he doesn’t know how to “play the games” and that he doesn’t seem to see or respect her strength as she respects his. (Okay, those are in the wrong order, but whatever.) One hopes that, between Elyas’s pointers and her survival of the Shaido episode he will be able to show her that he knows and has confidence in her strength, so they can get on with the things that need to be done.
Three, Perrin as he was at the beginning of the books is not the man he’s going to need to be “at the end of all things.” He started out gentle, thoughtful, cautious, and very much self-controlled. These are good characteristics, but they are not what’s needed in the leader of men and wolves for Tarmon Gai’don. I just came across this in CoT, chapter 5:
Putting that together with what Alan Romanczuk said in R.Fife’s interview, I’m thinking that one of the things Perrin needed to learn is how to be truly angry over the right things, and how to turn that anger to effective action. Faile is, I think, a necessary part of that development. In this chapter, Perrin learns that, at least by her lights, it’s okay to be angry with his wife as long as he’s honest with her about it and willing to work it out on equal terms. (N.B. I’m not saying I think this is a great model for marriage, but in context that’s how it is.) Later he learns to be angry in a just cause – as in, someone kidnapped his wife. From that, though, he also learns that just being wildly angry and flailing in all directions doesn’t work; the anger needs to be used wisely to be effective against the evil which was done. Final point, for now, is that through the kidnapping plot he starts to realize that sometimes for the greater good sacrifices have to be made; that sometimes those sacrifices are the lives of your friends; and that while those friends might not want to die, they accepted that risk right along with you and they are willing to die for the Light just as much as you are. These, and probably other things, are lessons he needs to learn before the Last Battle.
Okay, that was mostly rambling, but maybe it will trigger some good thoughts for someone else that will be beneficial to us all. :)
Wetlandernw –
From New Snow chapter 14 Changes:
tempest™
Wetlandernw@107:
Thanks for your long ramble about Faile and Perrin. Oddly enough, I just discovered some passages in The Shadow Rising which confirm your theory on Perrin having to learn to be angry and accept that he’s not responsible for other people’s decisions to follow him, even to their deaths. I quoted one above@100 and while that passage irritated me when I read it, I now see that was because he had NOT learned to be righteously angry yet. And the current plot may indeed be that teacher. Thanks for pointing that out.
Another: Ch.41, Among the Tuatha’an:
Faile: Perrin, my father says a general can take care of the living or weep for the dead, but he cannot do both.
Perrin: I am not a general, Faile. I am a fool of a blacksmith who thought he could use other people to help him get justice, or maybe revenge. I still want it, but I don’t want to use anyone else for it any longer.
Faile: Do you think the Trollocs will go away because you decide your motives are not pure enough? ….Are they any less vile? Do you need a purer reason to fight them than what they are? Another thing my father says. The worst sin a general can commit, worse than blundering, worse than losing, worse than anything, is to desert the men who depend on him.
Faile is schooling him and trying to make him believe in his actions and himself. To see himself as a good and true leader. She does love him without regard to who he is “attached” to. She is not a bad person and may be just who Perrin needs.
But I must say, she still confuses me in her emotional relationship with Perrin, most of the time…..but not here.
A bit later in the same chapter I found something that seems to refute Leigh’s epiphany about Faile not knowing about Perrin’s super nose. Faile has just come clean to Perrin about who her dad is, then asks him what the “yellow eyes” mean and who Elyas is, as they’ve been mentioned many times. So Perrin has to come clean too.
He exhaled slowly, and told her. How he had met Elyas Machera and learned he could talk to wolves. How his eyes had changed color, grown sharper and his hearing and his sense of smell, like a wolf’s. About the wolf dream. About what would happen to him, if he ever lost his hold on humanity.
She comments, “If your ears are really that sharp, I will have to watch what I say close to you…..I heard every word [you said].”
I assume that means she knows his nose is very sensitive. It may not clue her in that he smells “emotions”, but she should know about smelling fear, for instance. Most of us know that animals can sense that. Just a thought……
Thought I would try to see how long each of the books lasts. I went to Steven Coopers site, and looked at the basic start and end date for each books, using his chronology. There is some overlap, but in general I used his “lines.”
So in general we see
0 New Spring 148 days
1 The Eye of the World 76
2 The Great Hunt 171
3 The Dragon Reborn 83
4 The Shadow Rising 66
5 The Fire of Heaven 53
6 Lord of Chaos 101
7 A Crown of Swords 7
8 The Path of Daggers 37
9 Winter’s Heart 22
10 Crossroads of Twilight 27
11 Knife of Dreams 24
12 The Gathering Storm 39
So we see that books 7-12 take up less time than TGH by itself.
Of course, TGH takes so many days because Rand & co. were lost in the portal worlds for about 3 months. And we don’t get details on the Wonder Girls schooling at TV; mostly just a montage.
How long were the WG’s in “school”? I think it’s just 4 months, but I’ll go check.
chaplainchris @99
Interesting perspective on the hawk trying to leash Perrin. Perhaps Berelain was trying to control Perrin by keeping him emotionally off balance. We know of somebody else who must not be named who loves the tactic.
Tektonica @109
From the text you quoted, it appears Faile only connected the dots on Perrin’s hearing. Not on his sense of scent.
J.Dauro @110
Not surprising. As eventful as the books were, none of the others fell into the Portal Stone Time Warp/Alternate Realities Trip TGH fell into.
So… checking the actual dates, Rand and co. entered the portal stone on July 4, 998, and reached Toman Head on Nov. 14.
And Egwene and Nyneave only spent 95 days in the Tower the first time, and were only back 3 days before being sent out again. Elayne had about a month longer in the Tower.
Reading over the course of 15 or 20 years, it is hard to comprehend the break-neck pace of events. We first meet Rand on March 23, 998, and he learns his fate on May 9, at the Eye of the World. That’s less than seven weeks! And he saves the world again two months later (viewpoint time) at Falme. He has time to brood over the winter, but then strikes out on his own to walk across two-thirds of Randland to fulfill his destiny at the Heart of Stone on May 19, 999. Then he is proclaimed as the Car’a’carn on July 1, leads his people across the Dragonwall, loses his virginity, and fights for Cairhein. He loses his chief advisor and takes Camelyn on Sept. 21. Three months and 10 days later he breaks out of the box at Dumai Wells in time to fight off the Shaido trying to capture him.
And that is just Rand’s timeline! When you add in everybody else, it really gets hectic!
Tek@100 it’s not so much annoyance as it is frustration but perhaps we are meant to feel that way so that as Wetlandernw said @107, Perrin learns how to become angry and how to channel that anger constructively.
I also like Berelain minus the chasing after married Perrin thing, Ogier oath or no it’s childish and unbecoming of her otherwise capable character.
Okay. I’ve been reading and re-reading the entire series, and I just completed Crossroads of Twilight and am now onto Knife of Dreams, so this is going to be a leetle off topic. Every time I do a re-read, I like to focus on something different, still reading everything, but paying special attention to certain bits and thinking about how they might relate to the whole body of work. This time through I was focusing on Mat and Aludra, specifically the impact of firearms on the chances of success at Tarmon Gai’don, and their effect on life after (if there is any). First, the theory: Rand will not break the world as he is predicted to do in the Karaethon Cycle. Instead, the world will be “broken” by Aludra’s Dragons.
First, why Rand will not break the world. a) He is already welding the nations together, into a unified force. b) The same mistake as last time cannot or will not be made, Saidin (or Saidar) is not going to be tainted again. Nicola’s foretelling gives us this info (after the final battle is done, the world is not done with battle, Guardians to balance the Servants, etc.) The part about Asha’man balancing Aes Sedai at least confirms that they will be on equal footing, thus, no taint. No mad channelers equals no breaking on the scale of the previous one. This brings up the question: If not mad channelers, then what will break the world?
Why Aludra’s Dragons will break the world. a) First, the old tongue is so nuanced, and translations lose something of the meaning, the previously mentioned part of the Karaethon Cycle about the Dragon breaking the world could not even be about Rand, but in fact a minor mistranslation of Dragons. Lose the “s” and you get a whole different meaning. b) Egwene’s dreams indicate that Mat will be responsible for the deaths of thousands, however, the specific dream I am thinking of (the bowling one), indicates that he will either be oblivious to it or not care. At this point in time, he cares deeply about any loss of life, yet understands that it is necessary for success at Tarmon Gai’don. Something might happen along the way that makes him more callous and indifferent to the deaths he causes, but that is likely to happen after the Last Battle, or during it (who knows, maybe “The death of Tuon” was more than just a chapter title, and was also a bit of foreshadowing). c) One of Mat’s own dreams, while not strictly prophetic, is indicative of this idea that the Dragons will break the world. He dreams of their explosions ripping men and horses and battle formations apart (which is odd because the Dragons should be ready for Tarmon Gai’don, and Mat would have little to no time to employ them against the Seanchan).
So that’s my theory. Any thoughts or ideas about it? (anyone know if anyone else has a similar theory and where I could find it?). Anyway, my thoughts on this chapter: …Perrin broods.
Amalisa@98
Re Faramir & Eowyn. In the extended DVD version of the films there is more on them, including dialog, IIRC. I haven’t read the books at the time so I remember being surprised at this development.
There is some very insightful posts here on Perrin. Brilliant stuff.
@103. Der_Wikinger
I dont think Perrin will get 2 wives , as rand already has got 3, and so perrin also getting them doesnt seem probable.
The Rand storyline and Perrin storyline will then match a bit, and that will be too much.
dont think RJ or BWS will do something like that, as the story wont be good enough the.
I mean come one, copying 1 heroes plotline to the other…..not gonna happen as per me.
RJ is just too good a writer to do something like that.
okay, ive rambled enough……..hopefully you got what i meant to say, as i have’nt been very coherent in what ive written her.:P:D
Wetlandernw @@@@@ 107:
You’re welcome. :)
Ewells@90
For my Birthday I get Mat thrashing Galad and Gawyn.
A few thoughts on character motivation.
1. That Perrin hasn’t figured out that Faile expects him to yell back is his own fault because she has explained this to him. Several times in fact, as have her parents. Admittedly she hasn’t always explained very well but she has tried. Faile cutting him off in the middle of attempting to promise to never be angry with her was probably the one part that her understood but that’s it.
2. Even though she knows he can smell her if you don’t know about pheromones and other things making the leap to olfactory empathy is a real big one.
3. Faile can’t treat Berilain as she deserves for the same reason she has to respect her, professionalism. B has been sent by Perrin’s “Leige Lord” to assist in accomplishing a task. Shaving her bald and staking her out for the ants would completely destroy her negotiating authority and lead to friction with a major portion of the troops under Perrin’s command. A wife has to be practical, and starting a fight in the ranks is bad strategy when going into a hostile situation. As long as it’s just Faile and Berilain “playing games” it doesn’t disrupt the military readiness of the of the mission.
4. Possible logic behind the shouting. When people shout they speak in an unguarded manner, and you reveal things that could be used against you by an enemy. So by remaining controlled when angry Perrin is telling Faile not only that he doesn’t think she’s got the strength of will and character to stand up to him, but also the he doesn’t trust her not to take advantage of his honest feelings.
5. Berilain, really doesn’t understand what she’s trying to do. In her experience sex and marriage are tools for obtaining political advantage. Consider the dearth of the Taeran High Lords and Ladies who are not scheming to bump off their spouse. She understands Lust as a weapon and see a relationship with Perrin as a political tie to the Dragon Reborn, some thing that will raise her standing and give her more firepower to protect her holdings. She assumes that upward mobility is Faile’s purpose as well and light burn her if she is going to be out done in the art of seducing the powerful by some 15 year old chit from the back end of Outer Mongolia. I doubt Barilain has ever seen marriage that is not primarily about obtaining political advantage or in which the principles weren’t always looking for some way to “trade up.”
This is part of why she spreads the idea that Perrin slept with her. Shes working on the assumption that he hasn’t taken her up on her offers merely in order to preserve his reputation. Once that’s gone there would be nothing to restrain him. She really can’t yet conceive of a relationship being primarily about ones desire to be with the other person. It’s some thing she needs to understand in order to actually “Fall in Love.”
I have to say that Perrin’s storyline post-TSR is so annoying to me because it is the 3rd (!) reitiration of the “reluctant leader” trope, which itself is a big lie, though naturally beloved in fantasy.
Not to mention that for Perrin it is a re-tread of the very same ground that has been already covered in TSR and in a much more enjoyable manner.
It is like, when Jordan decided to extend the series 2x after LoC, he suddenly noticed that there wasn’t enough for Perrin, Elayne and even partly Mat to do, so he heaped them with pointless busy-work that often required character regressions.
Anyway, on to “reluctant leader is the best” trope.
IMHO, it goes completely against human nature, which is that people tend to perform better at the tasks that they enjoy and that very few are strong-willed enough to excel at something that they hate. Not to mention that people often also have a subconscious understanding of their own limits.
Unsurprisingly, people like Charles I, Louis XVI and Nicholas II were all reluctant leaders… and for a good reason. Naturally, there were many, many less drastic examples at less crucial time periods too.
Anyway, the point is that while damage inflicted by ambition and power-hunger is flashy and in your face, the creeping deteriotoriation caused by reluctance of the ruler is no less damaging and dangerous in the long run.
IMHO, the few successful historical examples were due to:
1. Hypocrisy. Modesty was supposed to be a virtue and it was a good idea to make the ruled feel co-responsible for your regime by manipulating them into “forcing” you into an office that you secretly coveted.
Not that it had worked for Boris Godunov, but it did for a lot of other people. The Romans have elevated it into an art, in their day.
2. People who were willing and successful leaders at a certain level, but were reluctant to go up the next step.
That’s your Washington example – he didn’t become the most prominent military officer of the Colonies and one of the most prominent politicians, because he was dragged into it kicking and screaming.
So, he didn’t want to become the supreme ruler (which may have been wholly sincere, or with a dash of 1) – that hardly makes him comparable to the TR boys.
3. People, who had talent for leadership, but never were in a situation that offered them an opportunity to exercise it, suddenly getting their chance.
The Byzantine Emperor Anasthasios I comes to mind – he came to the throne, because he was the only Imperial bureaucrat (a very minor one at that) who didn’t manage to timely flee from his office during the civil disorders after his predessor’s death. The rampaging crowd dragged him from under a table where he was hiding and crowned him. He turned out to be a very decent ruler.
However! If an initially reluctant leader _remained_ reluctant, he didn’t remain a leader or indeed alive for long. I.e. Celestine V.
And IMHO, the only one of the TR boys who seemed to have inclination towards leadership from the get-go and underwent a plausible development of this trait, the only who had excellent reasons for the lengthy reluctance and a believable justification for why it didn’t cause him to vanish into obscurity or get him killed, was Rand.
Amalisa@97
“That said, I believe that Berelain will end up with Galad. The most beautiful woman in Randland (reputedly) and the most beautiful man. The “naughty” girl and the man who will only do right. The (possible) eventual king of Cairhien and the woman who served as its de facto steward. I’m sorry, but that match-up is just too delicious not to happen!”
Of course, you’re right. For all the reasons you stated. There’s just one scenario which would be more delicious, in my opinion: After so cruelly using her beauty to make life miserable for Perrin (and us!), Berelain falls madly in love with Galad, and he hardly gives her a second glance.
Poetic justice?
Jan@113- I’ve always had a hard time wrapping my head around the breakneck pace of events in the series. Laid out like you did, though it makes it clearer. [understatement] Wow- These heroes have had a busy two years! [/understatement]
schrodinger@115- An interesting theory you have there. I’ve also been mulling over the significance of Aludra’s Dragons and I can’t wait to see them in action. However, I must admit I’m having a hard time seeing how these “cannons” could do such widespread, catastrophic damage to cause another Breaking.
@@@@@98 Amalisa
I replied to your comments, but sorry, I don’t know what happened to about 2 or 3 paragraphs that I wrote @@@@@ 103. I’ve had this problem before with my postings here. Big chunks are often left out, even if I can see them in the preview. Anyway, I hope this time everything appears. I wrote:
First, let me tell you I’m happy you were able to maintain a great relationship with your ex husband’s wives. But as you said, it was a conscious decision you made on behalf of your son, and it required effort to maintain it. I’m not sure your comments about “kind of understanding where I’m coming from about polygamy” refers to the relationship you were able to develop with the ex wives ( I hope so ! If the relationship was really working perfectly, your son would have known and felt that he had a great mother who loved & cared for him, AND he had a set of “aunts” who he could rely upon to )…or if your comments about “kind of understanding” were about ‘serial polygamy’ because if so, then that’s not what I’m in support of. Divorce is most often a terrible experience to go through for all involved, for the children is worst. So, while I’m happy yours looked more amicable and you got friends in the bargain with the ex wives, your case is more like the exception which proves the rule.
Another thing I wrote and was thrown in Limbo when I posted my origianl comment was that when you mentioned “American Gothic” to describe what happened in your circumstances, I immediately thought about a movie called “Elizabethtown” with Orlando Bloom & Kirsten Dunst. I don’t know if you ever seen it , and while it’s not one of my favourite movies it has stayed with me because it kind of feels like a piece of American life that is often not seen in film…and Orlando Bloom doesn’t play a character larger than life. His performance there is good, but understated. If you are ever up to telling me more about your “American Gothic” experience I’m all ears, sounds like there’s an interesting story there ^^.
To your raise of “Hello Mr. Right”, I”m calling your bluff ^^;. hahahaha…Yeah, I understand the ‘i hate u now, love u later’ trope has been done to death ( The Taming of the Shrew by Shakespeare is probably the mother of them all…unless there’s a grandmother in the Greeks Classics or earlier, but I think the “Taming” is the source for much of that trope). I didn’t know about the details of the Aragorn/Arwen/Eowyn triangle. To be honest, and I’m guessing I’ll be upsetting a lot of Tolkien fans out there , perhaps even you, I never really could get into the story of the Lord of the Rings. I never could finish reading the books, not even one. Part of the problem was that all these characters’ names were so awkward to pronounce or remember. Part was the story telling was unnecessarily convoluted…But the biggest flaw, or the biggest reason why I could never finish the book or get excited about the Lord of the Rings was that the main character is a…hobbit. I get what Tolkien was trying to do i.e show that the ‘weakest or smallest’ of people can affect change, and be an inspiration to us all…BUT…I couldn’t identify with the main character, so I lost interest in the story. I really wish the main character had been Aragorn, even Legolas, or Boromir, or..etc.
Caught up on the comments and only a few things to add…
First, October 26, 2010 is now firmly marked on the calendar. Big thanks to BWS for kicking behind and getting the work done.
No comment on the whole Berelain multiple wives/polygamy thing. Just. No. Comment.
Schrodinger@115
Interesting idea and could happen. Although I always suspected that we may see Mr. Cauthon, using black powder, in the Tower of Ghenjei.
schrodinger@115
“First, the theory: Rand will not break the world as he is predicted to do in the Karaethon Cycle. Instead, the world will be “broken” by Aludra’s Dragons.”
Um… where do the prophecies explicitly predict that the Dragon will “break the world”? I find lots of war, death, breaking the lives of men, etc, but not quite another Breaking of the World. In all the prophecies, I’ve only found one line which implies this (“For he shall come like the breaking dawn, and shatter the world again with his coming, and make it anew.” from TGH).
http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/prophecies/karaethon.html
The Dragon/Dragons idea is suggestive, but I don’t think we’re going to get another Breaking with a capital B. I think the Dragons are going to be significant in another way.
We’ve had a few hints that the next age is going to be like our age. E.G. Rand’s schools which are inventing steam engines, telescopes, etc. If it’s going to be like our age, then there isn’t going to be Saidin/Saidar. If the True Source is no longer accessible, then gunpowder-based weapons are going to come in handy, no?
Isilel@120: I think you’re reading in the wrong trope. I don’t think Jordan is trying to promote the “reluctant leader is best” at all. He’s still following the idea that started the story off for him:
The logical answer if you’re three village boys from the backend of beyond? It’s going to suck, and you’re going to be pretty damn reluctant. Frankly the boys would have to be idiots to be as eager as some people seem to expect them to be.
re: Berelain and the doorway terangreal theory – I’m not sure I’m down with that because when Mat goes in the doorway at TV, the Snake who meets him makes a comment about it being so long that anyone has shown up from the other world. Then while Mat is in with the Snakes a gong or bell begins to ring and they get really excited, that it is “too much…” and now we know that Moiraine and Rand were both in there also. I think if Berelain had gone in there previously, the Snakes wouldn’t have commented on it being such a long time since anyone had come to see them.
re: Breaking. I really feel that the Breaking referred to with Rand’s coming is more political than physical. Yes, there will be lots of death and destruction, possibly including more instances of Balefire use, but if Saidar/Saidin use continues beyond Tarmon Gai’don, it will in AoL pre-war fashion. Saidin has been cleansed and the Ashaman and Aes Sedai should be able to work together again, as in the AoL.
The real Breaking, IMO, will be a major political realignment, with countries merging into bigger entities, possibly into a reincarnation of Artur Hawkwing’s empire. It will definitely be interesting, whichever way it goes. :-)
I have the following link bookmarked because I have had that issue before. It shows all bloggers for Tor. I just pick Leigh and it takes me to her most recent posts.
http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10286
HArai@126:
“I thought about what it really would be like – really – to be tapped on the shoulder and told that you had been born to save humanity.”
Sure, that was RJ’s premise for Rand and it worked very well for him, but why have 3 for the price of 1? Repetition has diluted it and made it boring, IMHO.
Frankly the boys would have to be idiots to be as eager as some people seem to expect them to be.
Were people who volunteered to fight against Nazis idiots?
Our Heroes are staring at the literal end of the world – is it idiotic to do all they can to forestall it or is it selfish and petulant to be reluctant when by the fluke of chance they are the ones with supernatural abilities that can save it?
Again, it works with Rand, because his destiny is so terrifying and because he comes to terms with it much more quickly, but not with the other 2, IMHO.
Rand is a perfect blend of natural inclination towards leadership (people thought that he’d be on the Village Council in a few years), conscious learning of leadership that he engages in throughout the books, and pre-determination that overcomes reluctance. And reluctance itself is very understandable in his situation.
But the other 2? They are just annoying in this respect, IMHO. Perrin in particular, since it is the _third (!)_ reiteration of the theme and he isn’t even funny and witty.
It doesn’t help that RJ apparently thought that irritating sycophants who can’t find their own posterior with a map and flashlight and bow and scrape at every step are essential for the hero to learn leadership.
As to Faile, I hated her from the beginning. She stuck to Perrin like a limpet, distracted him, blew the group’s cover in Illian, where it could have been fatal, immediately tried to undermine Perrin’s and Rand’s friendship, ditto his friendship with Duopotamians whom she pushed him into lording it over, etc. She reminds me of Lady Macbeth. Her silly games with Berelain aside.
Lannis@26: Elyas belongs to that relatively rare species of Randland supporting character that suffers from neither chronic thickheadedness nor acute hidden agenda disorder. Their advice is usually worth listening to. See also Min, Birgitte, Mat’s crew, Thom, a few others.
Unsurprisingly, a lot of my favorite supporting characters are on that list.
–
MuleHeadedLummox@87: I think it’s less a foul-mouthed ruler thing per se, and more RJ using bad language to signify a connection to the common people. Indeed, the state of Elayne’s vocabulary pretty closely tracks her overall attitude in that respect. At this point, she is aware that she doesn’t quite get it and is making an effort to address that deficiency, but her understanding hasn’t quite caught up with her good intentions.
And Mat’s the main catalyst for both her vocabulary and attitude changes. Initially, she doesn’t really respect him much, because he drinks and cusses and sleeps in his clothes and flirts with everyone and generally behaves exactly the way a reputable gentleman doesn’t. Then he pulls the rug out from under her worldview by being all reliable and heroic and self-sacrificing and stuff, so he sort of becomes her “admirable commoner” model. (It’s kind of hilarious how Elayne’s treatment of Birgitte as a special case means she doesn’t notice Birgitte is the exact same way, only female.)
Morgase, being a model of what Elayne is evolving towards (trauma conga line nonwithstanding), has naturally already gotten through both Cussing 101 and Intro to the Common Touch.
They were if they decided they should be generals straight off the farm. And people sure would have been idiots to put them in charge.
You’ve complained at length in previous threads when the only reason Perrin gets by is because he’s ta’veren. Why is Perrin “selfish and petulant” when he points out the same thing? He’s still trying, he’s just not happy so many lives depend on him lucking out.
Isilel @20:
You forgot Cincinnatus, who was so successful a reluctant hero that people still name cities after him 4000 years later.
Alisonwonderland @133:
You forgot Cincinnatus, who was so successful a reluctant hero
You do realize that it took a lot of effort and money to be elected consul, right? Nobody who managed that was a reluctant leader. And it is due to this previous record of willing and successful leadership that he was made dictator both times. IIRC, he didn’t waffle about it either, but did what he was charged to do quickly and efficiently.
HArai @132:
Perrin ought to know that his wolfbrother /Dreamworld ability could be important for TG. Yes, it could be dangerous.
So could channeling and dreamwalking, but did we see anybody else who shirked mastering such a talent on these grounds?
And also, for better or worse Perrin is thrust into leading position. He should be trying to learn enough to do it well, rather than emoing.
As to Mat, he didn’t want to fight to save the world in any capacity.
Perrin would have stayed and fought, being responsible. But his petulance re: wolfbrotherhood and leadership is tiresome, leave alone the whole Faile relationship madness.
Looking Glass @@@@@ 131: re: advice worth listening to…
It’s not the advice I have a problem with… see my comment at 26: okay, my issue with his advice isn’t the advice itself, so much as it’s validity.
It’s that it’s set up as a statement of fact. So many times we have seen unreliable information, regardless of the subject matter: a whole plethora of unabsolute-absolutes (the unHealable Healed, the unbreakable broken?), that as soon as Elyas says “A Saldaean wife is like X” I find it suspect.
Advice I have no problem with. Personally, Lini dishes out some of my favourites in the series. Do I think Lini’s advice is universally sound? No. Do I think that Elyas could be unintentionally misleading? Hells yeah.
It’s the pattern Jordan has set up that waves the red flag for me… the “if someone says X, it’s definitely NOT X” pattern that had me thinking (at first), that Elyas’ solution could not possibly be the neat answer Perrin needed.
You know, just to clarify. ;)
I think we need more cookies in the bunker…
Just made a double batch of chocolate chip cookies – to help sweeten the post that I’ll do later. :) Call it bribery…
J.Dauro @110
So we see that books 7-12 take up less time than TGH by itself.
But if we take a closer look at TGH we see that it skips large chunks of the 171 days. Approximately 130 days (Jul-05 – Sep-22, Sep-25 – Nov-13), to be more exact, which leaves about 40 days of action.
Books 7-12 only cover about 156 days but skip nothing but the odd day or two. So technically, looking at the days-to-screentime ratio, with the exception of ACoS there is not that much difference from TGH.
Ewells@90
Apr-22, 998 NE:
– Perrin and Egwene take refuge in an abandoned stedding. They are captured by Whitecloaks led by Geofram Bornhald. Hopper is killed. Elyas escapes.
– Rand and Mat work and stay the night at Grinwell’s farm.
Apr-22, 999 NE:
nothing
Apr-22, 1000 NE:
– Karede reaches Mat’s camp near the Malvide Narrows. Mat agrees to let him take Tuon back to Ebou Dar. Tuon completes the marriage ritual, naming Mat as her husband. She tells Mat about Lidya’s telling of her fortune.
Vanin arrives with news of ten thousand soldiers nearby, led by a Seanchan and hunting for Tuon. Tuon departs with Karede.
Mat sets an ambush for the enemy soldiers and wipes them out. Musenge takes the head of the Seanchan traitor [Elbar] to take back to Ebou Dar. Mat learns that by marrying Tuon he is now Prince of the Ravens.
So, one bummer, one meh, one ZOMG-awesomecakes-CMOA-CMOH-yay-*heart attack*…
Oooh cookies! Where’s the milk? I’m now sufficiently bribed, Wetlander. Bring it on! :D
Ok, I have to know — is there a timeline resource that y’all are using? ‘Cause I’d love to look mine up, but I wouldn’t know where to begin calculating from just reading the books.
-Beren
Lannis@135: Ok, that’s reasonable. That said, while Elyas does make a general statement about Saldaeans, he doesn’t dispense any relationship advice until after Perrin’s spectacularly unconvincing denial makes it plain that Faile indeed fits the usual mold. And that Perrin’s trying to pretend otherwise, with painful results.
Plus, from what little we’ve seen of others like Tenobia and Diera, Faile may actually be a relatively mild example of the national stereotype. Scary thought, that.
Beren @139
Tellings of the Wheel
Cincinnatus was appointed dictator, not elected consul.
Beren @139
Tellings of the Wheel
Beren@139,
Look at Wetlandernw post at 105 it has the link for the WoT chronology
Beren @139
Tellings of the Wheel
According to the timeline my birthday is not in the books timeline onscreen so to speak although on July 6 999 Nynaeve and Elaine met with wise ones and Egwene in TAR. That is closest to my own birthday.
I am currently in Chap 6 of Lord of Chaos so have only memory of POD to base comments on. I am hoping that my re-read this year will be more understanding of Perrin. I know it improves without the wait between books and knowing that in Perrin’s view it was such a short time I can be less annoyed.
Perrin was afraid heading back to Cairhein after Dumai’s Wells that Faile would be in trouble. Did they argue before that trip?? so losing her soon after would be twice as scary
Still hangin’ around. ;)
ewells @90: Hmm. ::goes looking for and finds the WoT Timeline:: To paraphrase:
Jun 18, 998: Rand + co. reach the monument in the Portal Stone world. Rand defends Selene from a pack of grolm.
Jun 18, 999: SG’s arrive in Tanchico, and Elayne gets drunk. Nynaeve runs into Asmodean in Tel’aran’rhiod and gets chased off by Birgitte.
Jun 18, 1000: Will probably be in ToM or AMoL.
WetNW @136: Oooh Cookies!! Will bring milk to the bunker. :)
Randalator @137: That’s awesomecakes alright! After all, the most interesting thing on my list is… nothing. (Or, one okay, one meh, and one RAFO!)
Bzzz™.
jamesedjones @74
(OK,OK,74 was AGES ago, blame the “cold that won’t end”)
I’ve got scissors for ya, though I hope you’re still not hanging…..
Beren@139
Wheel of Time Chronology Here
http://www.stevenac.net/wot/wotchron.htm
Wetlandernw @@@@@ 105
very very cool timeline!!!!
Thank you for the link!!!!
(you too SteelBlaidd)
Lannis@135
I would agree with your red flag application in regards to Elyas’ advice, except that he precludes such a thought by stating that he’d known of three Saldaean women who didn’t fit the pattern, and that who knows, perhaps Perrin’s wife is the fourth. That removes his comments from the realm of absolute blanket statements, ensuring its credibility for the reader. Plus, there is no reason whatever for Elyas to mislead Perrin. Heck, he traveled a great distance to meet up with Perrin, following the wolves’ guidance, because he had nothing better to do than help a wolfbrother who is working with/for Shadowkiller. Lastly, in case anyone wonders if Elyas could be a darkfriend, the wolves know whom they can and cannot trust. They knew when Perrin and Egwene were lying about their journey towards Caemlyn; it would be impossible for Elyas to hide that from them.
Looking Glass @@@@@ 140: re: Those Crazy Saldaean Leopards…
Plus, from what little we’ve seen of others like Tenobia and Diera, Faile may actually be a relatively mild example of the national stereotype. Scary thought, that.
“Scary thought” might be an understatement. ;)
Free @@@@@ 151: And you, sir, I can always trust to find the holes in my arguments… Which, you know, is why we keep you around… ;)
I only have one (teeny) response to your comment:
Plus, there is no reason whatever for Elyas to mislead Perrin.
No, I can’t say I could ever see Elyas intentionally misleading Perrin. Accidentally with the intent to help him, yes.
Thanks for the cookies Wetlander! Omm nom nom. :)
EDIT: Typo.
Beren @139
Others beat me to it, but you have to go see Steven’s work.
Since people seem to think that days per book is a bit unprecise, I made some adjustments (removing 133 days from TGH, for example) and computed words/day. These are rough, but about
NS – 800
TEOTW – 4000
TGH – 7000
TDR – 4700
TSR – 9800
TFOH – 6600
LOC – 4800
ACOS – 42000
TPOD – 6000
WH – 10800
COT – 10000
KOD – 13000
TGS – 7600
or in ascending speed
ACOS – 42000
KOD – 13000
WH – 10800
COT – 10000
TSR – 9800
TGS – 7600
TGH – 7000
TFOH – 6600
TPOD – 6000
LOC – 4800
TDR – 4700
TEOTW – 4000
NS – 800
Steel@149
Very cool, thanks!
March 30 998:Moiraine and co. arrive in Baerlon, Rand has his first encounter with Ba’alzamon.
March 30 999:Whole lotta nothing.
March 30 1000:Egad, we’ve got . . .
Beonin leaves Salidar, goes back to Elaida
Matt buys a bowstave and a razor (the horse) for Tuon
Egwene humiliates three accepted teaching novice classes and gets moved to private meetings with Aes Sedai, where she goes on to prove she knows more than some of them about the 13th depository.
150 scissorrunner
Ah, thank you. You are a saint. Keep runnin’ :)
and for tomorrow…..all this and a new post!!!
998 – Moiraine eavesdrops on Rand and Egwene’s conversation – Rand realizes he can never go home.
sad realization
999 – Perrin’s party arrive in Tear. Moiraine and Lan investigate; Perrin spends the day at the smithy. Moiraine returns with news of Be’lal; Lan reports the presence of Aiel in Tear.
always loved Perrin’s day at the smithy, didn’t he get his hammer then too?
1000 – Nynaeve, with Merise, Cadsuane, and Corele, observes a ghost procession through Bandar Eban at midnight She Heals a child among the refugees.
Returning to the palace, she interrogates the dosun (housekeeper) about the messenger. She leads a party to the dungeon where he was questioned, where she finds Milisair. She realizes Milisair is being slowly poisoned, and captured the fleeing apprentice Kerb.
Back at the manor, she brings Kerb before Rand. She removes a web of Compulsion from Kerb, but this renders him mindless. Before dying, he manages to tell them the name Natrin’s Barrow.
YIKES! what a day!
Randalator@137:
Yeah, our birthday has a great MOA scene for Mat!
Great timeline! Very very interesting. Thanks for that.
And cookies!! Oh boy! ( and a Wetlander post to come too!)
Terez has updated her Gawyn Kills Rand Theory on Dragonmount….the link is at 1117 on the Open Thread. It’s impeded or I’d put it here. Definitely worth a good long read.
[i]Edit: Oops, I meant imbeded ;-0
Sept 8, 998 In the Portal Stone
999- Birgitte ripped out and bonded by Elayne, but on a plus side Liandrin is left permanently shielded :)
Hmmmm – my WoT B-day:
July 30th 998 Nothing(portal stone and training)
July 30th 999 Padan Fain arrives in Tar Valon.
July 30th 1000 TBD…
Here’s hoping for a reunion with Moiraine on July 30th 1000!
tempest™
J. Dauro @153 – I had to pick my jaw up off the floor. Forty-two thousand words per day??? Whoa, Bela!
Re: survey… 998 – nuthin. 999 – Nynaeve, Elayne & co. arrive in Salidar. 1000 – the Last Battle will probably happen first – it may never arrive.
thewindrose @159 – I’m thinking the reunion you hope for will be more like early June, or possibly mid-May if Mat decides to open Verin’s letter at the 10-day mark. (He got it on May 4; Rand “sees” him in Caemlyn on May 15.) You might get Tarmon Gai’don for your birthday instead. :) ::Happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you….::
Rant upcoming in a bit. :)
[Rant]And for those who insist on whingeing about various events not being true to Real Life in the Wheel of Time… I obviously don’t have the authority to tell anyone to stop, though of course I can “vote with my page-down key” and not read. Which happens not infrequently, particularly in recent times. Still, if I can’t tell anyone to stop, I can at least point out a few of the logical fallacies from my POV.
First let’s get the obvious one out of the way. This is fantasy, not real life. Further, it is the fantasy of a wonderfully imaginative man named James Oliver Rigney, and as such it is required to adhere to real life principles only so far as he imagined it to do so. I know that’s a big “duh” but it had to be said. It’s his fantasy, not yours. Deal. (If you don’t like it, you can write your own fantasy. If you’re a good enough author, someone might even read it. Till then… deal.)
Now, let’s set aside the knowledge that this is a fantasy, and look at it from within the cosmology. Every Age, on every turn of the Wheel, is slightly different. Some are pretty similar, some are significantly dissimilar. That means that sometime, somewhere, in some Age on some turning of the Wheel, your “real life” expectations would be true, but in many others, they would not. Thus, in some ages a situation like this would develop toward democracy; in others, feudalism would become more entrenched. In some, anarchy would reign for a time, while in others powerful monarchies would be prevalent. In some ages, most of the leaders would be men; in others, most would be women; in still others, there would be a general balance of both. In some, homosexuality would be frowned upon in general; in others, it would be widespread. And so on, and so forth. So whatever your gripe is, you can take it from the cosmology that it will happen your way in some Age, in some turn of the Wheel, but not this one.
On a related note, it’s worth pointing out that Robert Jordan was well-read and well-versed in the widely varying religions, histories, cultures, mythologies, legends and fairy tales of our world. (I shall hereinafter refer to these generically as “stories” since rhcmlaftoow is wierd to type.) He drew on those stories extensively in creating his fantasy world, but he very rarely (if ever) drew exact parallels. In many cases, he would draw aspects of several different stories or figures into a single plot or character; he also did the reverse, using different aspects of a single story or figure in several plots or characters. While I assume he expected the well-read among his readers to find those connections, he did not expect it to be necessary to the enjoyment of the series. At the same time, it seems to me that he expects us to figure out that he’s not, at any point, just retelling an existing story. Therefore, to expect even a single plot arc in the Wheel to follow a real-world story extensively is, IMHO, absurd.
This includes, or maybe I should say especially applies to, historical precedent. While he certainly drew on certain historical events and situations, he set up his world in such a way that it simply cannot logically develop the same way that ours did. “Real life” does not include people who can use the One Power to do “instantaneous magic” – to heal, to travel, to eavesdrop, to look into others’ dreams, to compel obedience, etc. Oh, certainly we have ways to do most of that (except the dreaming), but it’s a matter of research and engineering, not magic. Real life also does not include a Breaking, done by men wielding that Power, in which the face of the entire planet was rearranged in great upheavals, causing massive death and destruction, leaving various people groups stranded or displaced, forming new population centers which eventually developed into cultures and nations.
Based on all those and many more arguments that could be brought to bear, the continuing complaint that various developments in the Wheel of Time are “unrealistic” is meaningless. Of course they are not like our own history; in a work of fiction they aren’t meant to be, and if this particular work of fiction attempted to make them so, it would be even more unrealistic. Not only is the cosmology different than our own, the entire known history of the planet is different than ours; to complain about the lack of parallelism is groundless.[/Rant]
Okay, I’ve got that out of my system now. Just had to say it, and now I can drop the subject. And page down at will.
tonyz@142
Cincinnatus had already been Consul in the past when he was appointed dictator – which means he had worked hard to get elected, which means he couldn’t have been too reluctant.
Cincinnatus was a _humble_ leader, willingly retiring into obscurity when his term was over. But when summoned to serve the Republic, he came without any delay, (except for sending his wife to bring a toga, so he would be properly dressed to receive the Senators).
Compare with Moses, the reluctant leader, who started giving excuses “I’m not a good speaker, they won’t believe me, etc”.
@161
Well now that I know the Wheel of Time series is not realistic I am at a loss on how to wash my silk. Darn this fantasy. It has no helpful instructions for life at all. :)
Hear, O People of the Dragon…
From the Creator Himself, in an interview with Rick Kleffel on 13 January 2003… The entire interview is very enlightening, but I thought this in particular (at 21:03 in the recording) was pertinent to the comments in response to this part of the re-read.
Q: Now, your characters are complex and often conflicted. Though they inhabit a world that you created, they seem real and clearly readers feel that they can relate to them. How do you balance keeping your characters true to their world but relevant to ours?
A: I don’t care whether they’re relevant to ours. I try to keep them true to themselves, which is not difficult really. I know what sort of person each character is supposed to be. I know what experiences that character has had and how those experiences have changed that character or not changed that character. So it’s very simple. I’ve often said I created these people. I’m an Old Testament God with my fist in the middle of their lives. It’s very easy to run them.
(I’d found this today and listened to it. Some of you may have already heard it. Wetlandernw, when I read your post, it reminded me of the foregoing bit in particular.)
Edit for spelling.
LOL, Wetlandernw!
Anyway, I tried to analyze why I still hate this storyline as much as ever, when some people seem to see it more favorably this time around.
And my answers are – regurgitation, bloat and Faile ;). Oh and Shaido and Masema don’t help either :).
It is the 4th take on “reluctant leader” within the series and second (!) for Perrin. And Perrin had to regress from the gains made in TSR to contend with largely the same issues anew, too!
And he saves Faile from captivity yet again, though unfortunately at much greater length than in TDR. Etc.
It is not actually a question of realism so much, but “been there (repeatedly), done that (in much more exciting manner)”. With the same protagonist, even.
Anyway, sorry, I’ll stop annoying you now!
wet @160
I had to pick my jaw up off the floor. Forty-two thousand words per day??? Whoa, Bela!
It was an interesting week. *g*
*cue Firefly tag*
“Define ‘interesting’!”
– “Oh god, oh god, we’re all gonna die?”
161 Wetlandernw
I hope someone steals “rhcmlaftoow” for a handle. ;)
Welandernw@161:
Thank you! I totally agree. It’s fiction. It’s RJ’s fiction. I appreciate all the nuances and issues that Leigh and our fellow bloggers suss out and discuss. It makes the material even more interesting, instructive and thought provoking.
That said, I can forgive many political and cultural “differences” even abhorrent ones, as this is not Real Life on planet Earth in 2010. To state the obvious, suspending disbelief is a requirement in Fantasy.
Isilel@165:
I too am trying to like Perrin and this plot, but I”m having serious problems. I’m now reading Perrin’s first “reluctant leader” plot in my reread of tSR and I fear the current PoD reread is coloring my dislike of it, as well. I do remember liking it in the past, and it has a lot lower irritation factor than this one. The loss of family and attack on his home town seem very compelling reasons to be in pain, and also to be righteously angry.
Losing Faile, his wife, his only family now to the scummy Shaido is a good reason to be angry, but the reluctant leader thing should be easy to cast aside given his need to rescue her and the others. Why so conflicted?
Johnathan@162
There are several parallels with Moses that become apparent in tGS.
Re: the reluctatant leader. I’ve always thought it was interesting how differently the three ta’veren react. Rand is, understandably, reluctant to take up the mantle of the Dragon but once he does, he does his best to do the job well, picking Elayne’s brains on rulership in the Stone for example.
Mat also does his best to be a good General, if mostly at the beginning because they’re between him and what ever is coming after him. What he doesn’t want is to be a noble( morons hung up on “honor”), or a “hero” (tends to get one killed).
Perrin’s issue is being Lord of people he knows and leading men in to battle whose mothers and wives and children he knows by name.
Can’t believe I didn’t say this before. Leigh quoted the part about Faile thinking that if she’d kidnapped the Queen of Ghealdan, Perrin would have to lose his temper. About two paragraphs later, Gallene shouts at the Mayeners and calls them “mangy dogs” and Perrin wonders what would happen if he called the Two Rivers men mangy dogs. “Might earn him a punch on the nose. It might be worth a try, anyway.”
LOL
Welandernw @161
Stands up and claps wildly.
09/Dec/978 NS – Nothing
09/Dec/998 – Nothing
09/Dec/999 – Min views the Tairen nobles meeting Rand; she sees death for Aracome, Maraconn and Gueyan. Meh, unless you happen to be Aracome, Maraconn and Gueyan.
09/Dec/1000 – The world will already have ended.
So. Story of my life, nothing much happening here.
Mis-good thing Wetlander’s around or I might have been bummed.
Guys and Ladies,
We have been served, thanks to Wetlander.
Wetlander,
That was really deep. And all of us should know that on some level. That is the reason I enrolled at your school for my post grad studies.
By the way did you get my transcipts??? LOL.
Shoryuken
Wetlander
I agree completely with your general assertion re “its his world – its not real life – go with it”
But at the end of the day that is kinda the point of these kind of sites, I like the arguments even if I think people are completely wrong – otherwise we would all just be “good chapter that” n stuff.
But at the same time – I do like to scream “its not real, he made it up!” and also wonder why people who can believe that a magic woman came and swept up 3 boys and a few others into a life or death struggle to save the universe then have a hard time with things like “he wouldn’t still be a reluctant leader by now”.
Well apparently he is.
So, agree, but disagree, and happily so.
TNSDO
Tektonica @@@@@ 168:
I’ve got to admit, I’ve got a lot of sympathy for Perrin because I relate to him so well. And his reluctance to be a leader has always struck me as a desire to avoid the responsibility. It’s one thing when it’s himself and his wife he’s got to look out for, but to have to look out for everyone else and try to do the best thing for them too…that’s a lot of burden to take on one’s shoulders. Particularly when all he wants to do is get his wife back. But then he not only had to worry about finding a way to save her but he has to try and keep everyone else alive while he’s at it.
Most people would rather not have that level of responsibility. I certainly wouldn’t. So I sure don’t blame him for agonizing over the whole thing.
It’s even worse when the last thing you want is responsibility over other people and it just happens that you’re really good at it.
thank you Professor Wetlandernw!!
Your wisdom is boundless
*bows deeply*
edit:cuz I can’t spell
All information is education.
I had a big long rant about why fiction has an underlying importance in the development and refinement of personal ideas. How this creates parallels to real life in the mind of people who see realistic similarities in what is written and what they believe is true.
It was long and tedious and far too boring to post here.
Suffice to say, people will discuss what they want, as they want, when they want not to be irritating but because it is what they believe is true.
It is only irritating if you do not agree with it. :)
I look forward to a re-read full of insights to the motivations and frustrations of and with fictional characters and cultures. A cold and logical re-read full of syntax analysis and deconstructed plot development and the use of the color orange this is not.
This is a lively, tempestuous, personal and engaging experience with all the wonders and difficulties that such entails. Especially in the Comment section. A Comment section which always hit the triple digits showing not just an appreciation for the Author of the series and the reader who posts the synopsis but a deep felt attachement that many of the commenters have to the books and the bloger but also to their own personal beliefs in connection to these works of fiction and observation.
Many people in the comment section have celebrated aspects of their lives that had very little to do with the book series and may have had a tangetical relationship with something Ms Butler wrote. Some people are more vocal (wroteal?) Some are more humorous, some are more serious. Some say things that not everyone agrees and cause little discussions.
Generally the comments have been well written, well received and well mannered. There are always occasions where people get a bit to personal in their stance and the black and white swords of reason and emotion get slashed about with very little successful resolution and more a weary sheathing. Because in the end most people do realize it is fiction and there is always another post to engage and entertain and enliven the disscussions.
It is fiction, and what is written in the books are what should stand as the backbone of the disscussions.
But people are of themselves and in that they will always put their beliefs on the table in any discussion.
@@@@@ Wetlander and Longtimefan: interesting and thought-provoking, as usual. Thanks! :)
Erm… where’s our new post? ::twitch::
Longtimefan, dang it, I thought you were going to reveal how to clean the silk;) Faile does an alright job, but what if you are rubbing two colors like red and white together? Whould there be color transfer? Does she metion this, I can’t remember. Help!
Just ‘twitchen’ :)
tempest™
Longtimefan@176:
Beautiful and well put. Thank you. So glad you are here.
**twitch twitch twitch**
My WOT b-day
July 23 998-nothing/Portal Stone
July 23 999- nothing/Egwene and WO meet w/ Nyn/Ela
July 23 1000- RAFO
Wetlander@161, Longtimefan@176- Amen and thank you! I agree 100%.
Wetlandernw@@@@@161: Brava! Comments such as this are why you truly are The Guru :)
Re the Bday Survey: Boo! Apparently my day in Shaldine/October is poor for even ‘meh’ moments, let alone MOA ones. I got nothin’!
Edit for: Longtimefan @@@@@ 176 – Well done, as always!
998 – At night, Rand’s party finds Fain’s camp, and steals back the Horn and dagger.
999 – Perrin wakes to find Loial and Gaul have gone off to close the Waygate. Emond’s Field is attacked by a force of five hundred Trollocs. The Trollocs are defeated. The Tinkers arrive at Emond’s Field; Aram asks to be taught the sword. Bornhald and his Whitecloaks attempt to arrest Perrin.Elayne meets with Egwene and Amys in Tel’aran’rhiod.
1000 – RAFO
I rate that a pretty cool day – thanks to whoever thought of the what happened on your birthday? game.
999 – Olver tries to attack Aviendha.
longtimefan@176
Actually I just read and participate in the comments section first and foremost because I like the company. You, toryx, Freelancer, M-A-T, Wetlandernw, M-O-M, RobM^2, Tektonica, Amalisa, thewindrose, Birgit, the irrepressible subwoofer, even the perpetually grumpy (but very insightful) Isilel.
My very upbeat friends: Samadai and insectoid
My favorite name: misfortuona
Chief miscreants: R.Fife and jamesedjones :-)
And that’s just a start – I should mention SteelBlaidd, thewindrose, BillinHI, HArai, Alisonwonderland, Lannis, blindillusion, Sulin, blocksmith, scissorrunner, Randalator, Rand Al’Todd, alreadymad.* and so forth.
I just know I’m going to post this comment and slap my head and say “Ooh, I forgot to mention …” So no insult intended to those regular posters that I didn’t list above.
Consider this: I read and enjoy Leigh’s postings on-line, but I also read articles from our local newspaper on-line as well. I am not even remotely tempted to participate in the forums attached to the articles from our local paper, whereas I really enjoy participating in this forum. And it’s all because of present company.
So give yourselves a collective pat on the back. You (collectively) are interesting, opinionated, respectful of others and so damn creative at times it lifts my day. Together, you’ve enriched the WoT experience for me, but I honestly suspect you could have done the same for lesser material.
Pass the cookies …
Thanks for the shout out, Forkroot.
As others have pointed out, well said, Longtimefan @@@@@ 176.
thanks Forkroot –
time to squee – new post is up!!
Wetlandernw and Longtimefan… big time ditto what Lannis said… :)
Forkroot, you are so right about the forums available with most online news outlets. In fact, I have an unfinished essay about how I am almost ready to give up on the internet entirely because of the (lack of) quality in the commentary in those places. (And I am so flattered to be mentioned!)
Quality – genuinely and consistently high quality – is the norm rather than the exception here, thank the Light!
Now for the mea culpa…
There was a time in my life when I was hot-tempered, stubborn, and walked around wearing blinders that kept me from seeing the viewpoints of others. It made me jump in, feet first, to any argument or discussion without a whole lot of forethought and with precious little care as to what might be fueling the opinions/feelings of the other side. Fortunately, and for the most part, I’ve outgrown those particular character flaws.
Now, above all else, I treasure civility. Which is, by and large, what we have here. I know it has been said more than once that the people who make up the community represented by this forum are intelligent, articulate and, most of the time, polite and careful when dealing with the opinions and feelings of others. For the times I have been less than that, I apologize now.
Of course, “for the most part” does not equal “always”. So, in the future, if some post hits my hot button and I find myself glancing about the room looking for something to throw, I will double my efforts to step back, breathe deeply and, if that doesn’t work, “page down”. :)
Birthday 7 March
998 and 999: Nothing
1000
Elayne leaves Caemlyn on one of her trips to country manors to gather support.
Doilin Mellar [Daved Hanlon] leads a sortie to bring eighty of Lord Luan’s men inside Caemlyn.
Rand agrees to accept Cadsuane as his advisor. An anonymous message leads them to where Gedwyn and Torval are staying. He and Lan find the two renegades dead, killed by Fain. Fain and Toram Riatin attack them. Fain creates an illusion of Torval and Gedwyn, but Rand manages to wound Fain, who flees. (Lan kills Toram.) They attempt to escape, but are captured and imprisoned.
Cadsuane uses her and Nynaeve’s Well ter’angreal to intimidate the Counsels into releasing Rand and Lan.
Perrin’s forces arrive at Brytan and make camp. Masuri and Annoura secretly visit Masema.
July 5 998 -nothing
July 5 999 -nothing
July 5 1000 – please something,anything!
misfortuona@171: Apparently we share a birthday. You’ve saved me the trouble of looking it up myself. Thanks. :)
Birthday: May 7
998 – They emerge from the Ways at mid-morning. Arrive at Fal Dara. Agelmar tells of Lan’s history, and the fall of Malkier.
– Elayne and Gawyn leave Caemlyn for Tar Valon, with Logain’s escort. Elaida goes with them.
999 – An Aiel messenger sets out for Tear bearing a letter to Moiraine from Amys and the other dreamwalking Wise Ones.
1000 – Aviendha, having been set to a punishment of moving rocks, sees the guard Adrin killed by a bubble of evil, consumed in fire which burns a hole in the wall of the manor house.
Fairly busy day :)
Wetlander @@@@@ 105 – thanks for the site ref! Good stuff! Also @@@@@ 107 – for my money, great and profound thoughts about what Perrin needed to learn before the Battle.
@@@@@115 – Rand’s already broken the world. Not everybody realizes it, most don’t, but all you have to do to break the world is *metaphorically* break it by changing it, shaking the foundations of what is known. BillinHI @@@@@128 said it better. By changing rulers, “breaking all bonds,” bringing the Aiel (permanently?) across the Dragonwall, cleansing saidin…dude’s already broken the world. The Gathering Storm shows it’s broken but good!
As @@@@@125 Johnathan Levy said, he will shatter the world _and make it anew_. I think the assumption of Rand, and most Randlanders, that there will be a literal new Breaking of the World will prove to be wrong – instead the Order of Things ™ of the last 3000 years will be shattered, but after his victory at Tarmon Gaidon, a new order (which will include gunpowder, but also universities and newly engaged and useful Aes Sedai who are also re-balanced by Ashaman) will be built instead.
Like Herid Fel – you have to clear away the rubble to build anew. Ultimately, even w/o the Last Battle, Randland was dying. Not only the Aes Sedai but all the nations were dying out, humanity fading, population dwindling. Broad swaths of formerly inhabited lands were barren and empty. With the repopulation due to the Seanchan and Aiel, and the revitalization of the Aes Sedai, and the cleansing of Aes Sedai and the birth of the Ashaman, and the new discoveries due to Rand’s schools, etc., the stage will be set for a better world post-Tarmon Gaidon. (It’ll be complicated, but the potential is there.)
If the world survives, of course.
@@@@@123 der_Wilkinger – if you don’t like Tolkien you don’t, and that’s ok. (As his #1 fan I don’t get it, but that’s ok too.) But I don’t think “Frodo” is that awkward or hard a name – much less Sam, Merry, and Pippin. They’re much easier and less awkward than names like Aragorn and Boromir and you got those! Also, if you’re trying to identify with the main characters, hobbits are perfect – if you don’t get caught up in their furry feet and their small stature. They work for identification because they’re normal – interested in beer and food and creature comforts and hanging with friends, rather than the lofty concerns of wizards and elves and Rangers. That’s the intent, anyway.
And if you can identify with Aragorn more easily than Sam or Frodo, you must be pretty bad*ss! ;)
@@@@@161 Wetlander. That was awesome. But, uh, can we address the important items now?
I can’t find the cookies.
Bday Dec 3
998 NE – nada.
999 NE – Mat’s party stay the night at The Southern Hoop. Adeleas discovers Mat’s medallion does not protect against indirect uses of the Power.
1000 NE – RAFO.
For the birthday survey:
7 Aug
998 NE – apparently still on the Portal Stone ride.
999 NE – nothin’
1000 NE – not there yet.
My grandson has been watching (and re-watching) a Phineas/Ferb episode where Perry the Platypus disappears (again) but this time they sing a song to bring him back.
:Come home Perry…easily moved to Come home Perrin in my mind. I think we will see this in TOM where Perrin is finally reunited with other TR boys….at least I hope so
“I’m allergic to dairy, I moving to the prairie, Going to change my name to Larry. (She changing her name to Larry) Come Home Perry Come Home
184 forkroot
Wow. Thanks for the mention… I think. lol
Okay so apparently there were a whole lot of comments on this post and really good ones as well that I somehow never read.
I caught Wetlander’s but then Longtimefan and Amalissa followed that up with their own deeply thought out commentary on the wonders of this community. Absolutely, I can’t even imagine taking part in most of the rant-a-thons on most forums.
Then forkroot went and got personal on us. Thanks I’m glad you like the name. (I kinda do too.)
And I discovered a birthday buddy.
**Waves to bkaul**
I can’t believe I missed it all, and now it’s Thursday. It’s okay though, I’ll be alright, especially since tomorrow is Pot Luck Friday.
Mis-cross posting cause who else will have so totally missed the awesomeness.
Wait. I’m a miscreant? Mwahahahahahahhaha. *wicked grin*
This is the 199th comment on the page, and it’s coming more than half a year after this re-read blog was first posted.
But it’s still worth saying: Faile’s plan for Alliandre is BRILLIANT. Like, stunningly so. Machiavelli would be proud. This is exactly what you do if you’re a moderately sized power moving in for the kill in a bigger power’s region. This is how you build alliances: take on all the little guys you can — from Morgase to Balwer to Alliandre to any Ghealdanin nobles — until you can stand toe to toe.
Anyway, Faile gets +1 in my book for playing Alliandre like a fiddle.
omg PLEASE do something like this about David Eddings’ books. I have NOT been able to re-read any of his books because now that I know how they end, there’s nothing left to enjoy except how UTTERLY INSANE everyone acts in those series. holy crap.
oh yes, and I love these things and I hope we meet accidentally in a Citibank and start to talk when you ask to borrow my pen.
Late to the party here. I just thought this chapter was tre cool because presumably, Perrin is sitting there with four “queens,” don’t know if anyone else noticed.
Alliandre, Queen of Gheldean, Berelain, First of Mayene, Morgase, Queen of Andor, and Faile, Queen of Manetheran (presumably).